Why Virtual Reality for BMS would improve the experience by order of magnitudes.
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Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
When your alternative is to run a very real risk of getting shot down, you mess with your settings while flying low level. Unless you enjoy being shot down more, of course.
Either way, the whole point is that inputs and outputs with higher fidelity allow me to handle a lot more stress and keep operating at decent efficiency and proficiency. VR removes a lot of fidelity in output, and pretty much all fidelity in input, and that is a cost I do not see nearly enough benefit to be worth paying. If you do, run VR all you want, I won’t try to stop you. And maybe VR sets and improvements in input systems will change all this and remove the obstacles I find to using VR in a complex sim environment within a few years. I would love if that happens!
But I still find it to be a waste of developer resources to focus on VR at this stage. VR simply isn’t good enough to improve the sim experience of BMS. Not yet.
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The system shooting at you has a moderate Pk. The ground has a 100% Pk. You are looking outside the cockpit in the low level environment.
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
Full manuals no, checklists sure. Combat checklists are memorized (hence acronym like FENCE ), but it doesnt hurt to have checklists for rare emergencies and stuff, if you have the time to check. And information on terrains, frequency, etc. is also useful to have.
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The system shooting at you has a moderate Pk. The ground has a 100% Pk. You are looking outside the cockpit in the low level environment.
Exactly. Which is why reaching for the mouse will kill you, while pushing a button won’t.
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
They bring checklists, yes. And they use them when they are in non-combat, complex procedures. That’s what the knee boards are for. And yes, definitely for takeoff. If you miss something then, you’re quite likely to die. No matter how cocky you are, that is a strong imperative to use a checklist. I also always keep approach plates, frequency lists and notes on the mission handy - along with a white board I can use for notes and off the cuff calculations. No, not everyone does that, but if I don’t have that, I can’t operate the aircraft properly. Call it a failing if you like.
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Exactly. Which is why reaching for the mouse will kill you, while pushing a button won’t.
Its why you dont reach for a mouse. Comes back down to the essence of the discussion - some folks reckon VR is inherently faulty, because it doesnt work well with a mouse and keyboard.
The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
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Full manuals no, checklists sure. Combat checklists are memorized (hence acronym like FENCE ), but it doesnt hurt to have checklists for rare emergencies and stuff, if you have the time to check. And information on terrains, frequency, etc. is also useful to have.
Full manuals, yes. You should have a full -1 with you in the cockpit when flying. Thats actually the reason section three has the highlighted borders - to make it easy to find the section in flight.
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I hope the BMS team are able to integrate VR into this game……
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I hope the BMS team are able to integrate VR into this game……
If BMS develops a game, they probably will.
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The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
I’ve said from the start that the mouse is probably the worst input method available in BMS. I stand by that, and fail to see what is “hilarious” in that my stance is consistent.
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Also, consider this: if the people who have MFDs, apps, etc. are a minority, how many do you think will be going with VR considering the cost of the VR and the hardware required? How would you justify the time spent on integrating VR and sorting out all other issues vs. the actual number of people that will use it? Now unless one of the devs make this his/her/their pet project….
I have MFDs, apps etc and a Rift so I suppose I can’t adequately answer your question. I haven’t spent anywhere near the amount of money or time on my setup as some members of the community have on theirs and I don’t want to sound disingenuous but I can say that my USB3 monitors, my MFDs and my shambles of an Akers-Barnes pit have all been put aside and the Rift is now the go-to.
Lots of projects have added VR support in and clearly think that their player base would use it. ED, DCS, Project Cars, War Thunder, ETS - to name a few big names in the simming world. I’m sure each sim has other stories on their lists to get through but someone, somewhere at each company thought the investment was worthwhile.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I suppose it depends by what you mean by ‘works’.
If you mean that you can click buttons and flick switches with your fingers, then yeah, we’re not there yet with VR and there’ll be workarounds for that. Then again, if you don’t have a RL simpit, you currently have to click and flick with your mouse anyway, so I can’t really see how that fits in as a reason not to integrate VR.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
I think it’s because we’re genuinely excited! We’re clearly huge fans of FBMS and would love to experience it with VR. The enthusiasm is just a function of disappointment (for lack of a better word) because it seems like the VR idea might get shot down before it ever takes off.
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Even with your eyes closed? Note that “not looking at it” doesn’t count because peripheral vision still works. If your ability to operate controls and press buttons with your eyes closed is the same as with your eyes opened, then I’m seriously impressed.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
Some people can operate their car’s dash controls and buttons with their eyes closed without losing any accuracy or efficiency. Most don’t.
As far as VR is concerned, you’ve just narrowed it down to people who don’t use iPads or any other external/physical devices, have no need for check lists or have memorized them, and who play in ITO. Very good!
Can any RL tubeliner pilots here confirm that they have memorized their pre-takeoff checklist and don’t bother with a printed one? Can any pilot here confirm that in an emergency, all they do is recall the appropriate checklist and not bother with a printed one?
ps. any chance of a screenshot of the ITO kneeboard “in use”? ie, as big as possible?
Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
Ah yes… how much information do you really think a human mind can contain? And in an emergency, how much do you want to rely on a person’s ability to recall information vs. reading out a checklist and double-checking that everything has been done? You’re on a flight to your holiday in sunny Spain but the Airbus you’re in just started losing power in the right engine. Do you want your pilot to just recall the emergency procedure or do you want him to “do” the emergency procedure as the co-pilot reads off from a checklist?
Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
True, but I think the point is – if I need to mess with your settings while flying at low level, I can, and without significantly increasing the risk of ground collision.
The hilarious thing is in your example, using a TIR or POV hat instead of VR, you still cant use the mouse to click the ICP while looking back to check six XD
The thing is, with a touchscreen or a physical button, I can reach out to touch it and activate it at the same time I check six, meaning my hand is reaching out for the button at the same time my head is swiveling around to check six. With only a screen and mouse cursor, you are restricted to doing things one-at-a-time. Click the ICP first (as you need to keep your view steady), then check six (or vice versa). Try to rush one step and you either click nothing or worse, click something else!
I have MFDs, apps etc and a Rift so I suppose I can’t adequately answer your question. I haven’t spent anywhere near the amount of money or time on my setup as some members of the community have on theirs and I don’t want to sound disingenuous but I can say that my USB3 monitors, my MFDs and my shambles of an Akers-Barnes pit have all been put aside and the Rift is now the go-to.
Sweet! How much time have you put in the Rift with BMS? Kick up a campaign or two, put it through the wringer, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts in a few months!
Lots of projects have added VR support in and clearly think that their player base would use it. ED, DCS, Project Cars, War Thunder, ETS - to name a few big names in the simming world. I’m sure each sim has other stories on their lists to get through but someone, somewhere at each company thought the investment was worthwhile.
The difference here is that those devs see VR integration as “worthwhile” in the sense that it’ll get them more customers = more money = they keep their jobs. BMS devs are different… whether 100 people fly BMS or 1,000 people, BMS devs do what they do out of their passion for Falcon. Tommo might get more money, sure, but the devs won’t. Because of this, the priority system for BMS devs would be different from a commercial dev group, I would think.
Also, compared to a full-time dev company, I don’t think the BMS devs are on the same level. Again, this would mean that the prioritization system would be different from that of a full-time dev company.
Note that I’m not saying VR integration in BMS should be a no-go; I’m simply saying that there may be other things that are in the pipeline for 3-4 Falcon weeks, others might be in 5-6 Falcon weeks, and yet others may be in 6 Falcon months. Where VR integration is in that system only BMS devs can say for sure but I would not expect 3-4 Falcon weeks.
Now let’s indulge a bit into fantasy at this point… waves magic wand… BMS devs announce that 4.33.2 will be released on May 10, 2016, and will have full VR integration (problems with HUD sorted) and even allow people to operate switches/knobs by just reaching out and doing it. They’ve dropped everything else from their plate to do this. May 10 rolls around. Out of the total BMS simmer population, how many do you think will be able to benefit from VR integration?
I suppose it depends by what you mean by ‘works’.
If you mean that you can click buttons and flick switches with your fingers, then yeah, we’re not there yet with VR and there’ll be workarounds for that. Then again, if you don’t have a RL simpit, you currently have to click and flick with your mouse anyway, so I can’t really see how that fits in as a reason not to integrate VR.
Not just the mouse. Some people have a functional simpit which has game aids to replace/complement the mouse and keyboard. This is where BMS becomes incompatible with VR for those with such setups…. as you well know. The decision there would then be whether the use of VR for better immersion warrants the loss of the ability to use those game aids.
I think it’s because we’re genuinely excited! We’re clearly huge fans of FBMS and would love to experience it with VR. The enthusiasm is just a function of disappointment (for lack of a better word) because it seems like the VR idea might get shot down before it ever takes off.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m excited about VR as well! However, I’m looking more for the “mixed reality” setup I’ve linked in post #106. While I don’t deny that the experience of flying with VR would be awesome, I cannot sacrifice the ability to do cockpit work for this. If this were FSX or Elite Dangerous, sure. Not with BMS though.
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Wait, you think RL fighter pilots bring a bunch of manuals that they open to read checklists mid flight for everything from takeoff to FENCE in to dropping bombs?
What, you mean this isn’t what pilots do in flight?
then again, that’s a F-14 RIO so maybe technically he doesn’t count?
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As a “real world pilot” I always use checklists for each phase of the flight. In an emergency the first few tasks are memorized for immediate action. Then as time allows you go over the checklist items for the particular emergency to make sure nothing was missed.
That would be the standard among real world pilots.
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Those first few items being CAPS - Critical Action Procedures. Execute the CAPS, then time permitting look it up in section 3.
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jcook: The amount of lists you bring along for a flight would probably have to be decreased if you’d have to start considering not having papers flying around like mad bees in the cockpit during a SAM break, not losing situational awareness in an environment where people shoot at you, and being able to safely operate an ejection seat if it comes to that.
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Kept in a folder and secured. Seriously, they carry a heap of stuff with them. Also, checking those papers is part of the ejection checklist. Yes, there is a checklist for ejection - several actually, depending on the circumstances of the ejection.
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Thanks Blu and jcook for the confirmation!
jcook: The amount of lists you bring along for a flight would probably have to be decreased if you’d have to start considering not having papers flying around like mad bees in the cockpit during a SAM break, not losing situational awareness in an environment where people shoot at you, and being able to safely operate an ejection seat if it comes to that.
Isn’t there a term for this? Stuff that isn’t secured in the cockpit and might get in the way when doing maneuvers? The term escapes me at the moment.
But yeah, there’s a reason the kneepad is secured to the leg. There’s a reason papers are kept in a secure container that is just out of the way but still easily accessible. As for lists, personally, I’d rather have too many lists and not need them than realize too late that I left that one list I really, REALLY needed. Plus for professional pilots (commercial and military), I would suspect that they’ve pared down their “paperwork” down as much as they can while still remaining safe. Nobody would bring a “how to operate the coffee machine” checklist if there is no need for it in any conceivable in-flight emergency.