Cadet Mentors
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One thing we have to remember here –- it’s fine to expect a person to have internal motivation, but we also have to remember that this is a hobby. Where a RL pilot can spend hours and hours combing manuals and memorizing stuff, an applicant may only have a few hours free each week due to other RL responsibilities. Having that helping hand can seriously accelerate their learning and fast forward them to the point where they enjoy the sim.
While the time constraint are true, I disagree with the result. To me a passionate flight simulator dude can actually know more about the aircraft than the real pilot flying it.
I know I’m going to shock a few people here saying so but I have seen some serious real life pilots (civil and military) biased by their work and I know a few fellow simmers knowing way more about the F-16 than the real F-16 pilots. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying these ppl would fly the F-16 correctly. I’m saying that some hobby may be passionate up to the point that learning and spending hours learning the minute details is not a big issue.
Other hobby are similar. Do you think you can be a good photographer in 6 weeks? No
Take the scale modelism hobby, it takes decades to make a good scale modelist. And some of us have multiple hobbies too
The bottom line is that when you enjoy what you do you don’t care about the time it takes.
So my point is, the time constraint is not a problem for passion driven ppl, and these guys habe intensive work and families and the usual life crap thrown at them as wellExcellent point, but who is going to highlight which parts are important and which parts aren’t? This is like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and then someone shows that young medical student ALL the books he will cover during his first year of training and then leaving him to it. Well, he wants to be a doctor so he should “take care of himself” and read those books. Not really a good way to start.
spoonfeeding that exactly what happens at school btw. Teacher who can make their cursus interesting are a minority. Many of them just read the damn book, which is useless.
Luckily, there is the practical work, and that’s exactly the same thing as this topic, the VFW provides the practical side of thingsLet me try to make the point this way:
I’m also an avid tabletop RPG player. Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder RPG, and so on. I can tell you that it’s easier getting new players by saying “just come and bring your imagination, I’ll take care of the rest” rather than plonking the 300+ page Player’s Handbook and saying “you need to read this before we start.” While it’s nice to have that player that has “done his homework” or has had previous experience and knows his way around the Player’s Handbook, if I were to limit myself to those types of people, my gaming circle would be very limited. However, by lowering the barrier of entry to “What type of character do you want to play? Fighter? Rogue? Archer?” and having the required skill being the ability to roll dice and do simple maths, I essentially open up my gaming table to anyone who wants to play “pretend” for a few hours, has taken a bath within the last week, and can interact with a small social group. I may not want to play with all of them; some seem to want more banter than playing, others want to ROLLplay instead of ROLEplay, others ROLEplay to the hilt to the detriment of the group, and so on. But in the bigger picture, there’s new blood in the hobby and while they may play that way NOW, they may grow and be more flexible and be potential tabletop buddies later on…Well enjoyment is a dual lane avenue. there is the enjoyment of the candidate and there is the enjoyment of the seasoned pilots within the same group.
Both have to be preserved. and that happens only when all the guys share the same philosophy and are trained on the same basis. Again, that’s why there are different type of VFW out there.
You can’t have a guy screwing up the enjoyment of 4 others because all he wants is to blow sh*t up at all costs and doing so he departs his teammate, pursue a bandit, kill him but doing so he’s attacked by the rest of the bad guys who in turn can attack the original formation because of the gap in mutual support.
By lowering the barrier of entry, this is what would happen imho
There is a very big difference between these type of games you mentioned (and I play Wot too) where you can play and be efficient with a very limited time due to the arcade style of the game and BMS who is clearly a study sim and where only these willing to dedicate the time necessary will not be a liability to their fellow pilots.Another aspect I’d like to put forward is that a new pilot may not realize there is a better way of doing things aside from what he’s doing now. Something like “you don’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone,” but this time it’s “you don’t know what you’re missing if you don’t even know it exists.” How many times have you come across someone who has said “no, that’s not for me” only to try it and say “OMG! This is awesome!!”? Whether the topic is food, an experience, a hobby, whatever… sometimes, you have to nudge (or PUSH!!) the people the right way a few times and then they’ll bite.
That’s why VFW are pushing ppl to try MP and that’s why some wings like ours makes guest flight (or the BVT solution as illustrated earlier)
That is true and reading this thread, I’ve come to realize that VFWs don’t really train people how to fly BMS but more like train people how to fly BMS with other people.
Yes. Actually that’s it. VFW is the next logical step to the sim hobby: flying MP. that opens door to more advanced scenario you can’t do solo.
But to fully enjoy that in a very demanding environment, flying and using the jet must be second nature. you have to be able to concentrate on the aspect of flying with other humans while you fly and use your jet’s system totally naturally, without dedicating brainpower to it. that’s why training is so important. the MP environment is demanding and it needs most of the brain power available - inversely proportional to the level of experience of the pilot.However, I’ve also seen some instances where people return to simming but immediately rule out BMS because they think it’s too hardcore, the learning curve is too steep, or as one guy puts it, “I don’t want to have to push 20 buttons just to drop a bomb.” They are afraid of not being able to hack it, of being told to RTFM. While some would say “who cares about those people then?,” aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?
We are limiting ourselves because of the actual washout rate. At 75-85% we can’t devoid times on these guys because doing so we may miss to train a guy who is worth it.
So yes I am not willing to take this guy on to training. I did in the past and nowadays I know it’s all lost time.
Some more junior IP may still decide to try, we’ll see once they have 10 years of experience what they think about itYes, but the hardware may be dependent on a person’s personal circumstance. They may not be able to afford a full HOTAS. They may not have the space for it. They may be content with a Logi 3D Pro, are able to take off, do stuff, and land, but cannot tank not because they cannot do it, but because their hardware cannot give them the finesse needed and as they’ve not tried anything else, they do not know it their hardware that is the limiting factor
What good is a guy in a VFW if he can’t tank because of his hardware?
that means the admin team has to see the bottlenecks of some TE’s and restrict the whole VFW because of that guy?
Sorry, no way. the admin of a VFW is another factor that takes time and a further task the usual guys (who are also IP) have to manage.
It’s all added workload on these guys (us) for the enjoyment of the candidates that should be preserved from learning too much or getting the right hardware?
Does that sound logical? Not to me -
Please allow me to comment further on just this point. The above statement is your definition, but most likely not “the” definition. While not being proficient may be fun for some, it can be absolutely no fun for those who strive to be, expect a certain level of the same from others, and obtain their fun factor from it. Some senior pilots do not enjoy flying and fighting with greener pilots who can’t hold their own and be a productive member of the team. Most of them don’t mind instructing/assisting someone to become such a team member (the majority actually enjoy it), but when it’s “go time” (campaign/designated flight night [where someone took time to create a TE or the like]/FvF event) these greener/newer pilots can most likely to expect to be on the bench. I’m not saying that’s the way of all, but it certainly is the way of some. As with most any facet of life, different people find fun/enjoyment in different ways. This sim is no different.
You are correct, that is not “the” definition or the only definition. However, I was making that example in support of my previous statement:
@-Ice:I can see the point in training someone so he can be a better pilot, training someone so that you have someone to fly with, but does anyone see value in training someone so he can simply enjoy the sim?
As you can see, it was from a “newbie” point of view and not meant to cover everyone. I was referring to those who struggle with the basics, or are just learning the basics, not someone who has a firm grip on the basics and is looking to “hone his craft.”
OK, so I lied. I’d like to comment on this as well. Of course VFW’s train people how to fly with other people, that’s the entire point of a VFW. As for the “aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?”: Perhaps we’d be truly limiting ourselves by catering to those who clearly do not care to invest the time/energy that can be required for this sim. As with most any other facet of life (yeah, I know), you’ll only get out of it what you put into it.
I’m not sure I follow… where did I say anything about you lying?
As to VFWs training to fly with other people, well, let’s just say that for numerous instances, people who ask for help learning the sim or “honing their craft” are often advised to “join a VFW” but on the flip side, some (maybe most?) VFWs have the bar set so that those who were asking for help to learn the sim will fall below the requirements.
Please don’t take too much offense regarding the “snobby” comment; I guess this is a result of the RTFM thread we had here a while back. However, on that topic, yes, you are limiting yourself. Similar to my RPG example above, if I only played with “those that have invested the time/energy” to read the Player’s Handbook, my gaming circle would be too small. By pouring a little more effort, I expand my circle and even now, I am introducing TWO friends who have had no prior tabletop RPG experience and have had no previous knowledge of the existence of this particular type of hobby. Instead of waiting for the fish to land in my lap, I went out, cast my line, and caught myself one (or two!).
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I’m not sure I follow… where did I say anything about you lying?
Oh no, not you at all! I was referring to my own comment of “please allow me to comment further on just this point” from the first of the two above posts, just to turn around and comment on another. :uham:
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@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
I’m not saying this sim is easy, I’m not saying people will “get it” in 2-3 weeks. What I’m saying is that if you (we) fail to “catch” people with their embers glowing, we are missing out on potential. Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
If I tell somebody he’ll need to go through A, B, and C and it’ll take XX hours before he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around?
If I tell that same guy to give me 30 minutes of his time and he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around? Sure, his takeoff will be sloppy. Sure, we’ll do a Taxi or Runway start instead of a Ramp start. He won’t be able to do formation flying and I bet he’d rather poke his eyes out than tank. He’ll also probably scrape the brakes on the jet when landing, that is if he doesn’t come down too hard and break the landing gear! But he’s had fun! What are the chances of him sticking around?
We can always work on improving other areas later on, but we can’t do that if the guy no longer sticks around.
Spoonfeeding - that’s the extreme end. I’m talking more like “concentrate on chapters 8-10 and we’ll talk about that next week.” That’s what my university professors did, and they did not even cover EVERYTHING on chapters 8-10, just the important parts.
We always say learning BMS is like eating the elephant –- it’s best to do so one bite at a time. It’s even better when people tell us which parts of the elephant is best to start on.
Enjoyment - Sure, I see what you’re saying. But will the 4 guys enjoy flying with each other all the time forever? What happens when one of them can’t make it? Or the 2nd one has to bail out due to family/work/life? We need new blood, and those with experience will have to make allowances.
You’ve cited the extreme example here, one guy goes lone wolf and the whole group gets screwed. Option 1 - let him go and find his own “Air Quake” buddies. Option 2 - show him the error of his ways and how mutual support and real-life tactics make things much better for all involved.
We all talk about challenging ourselves, learning new stuff, going for the next level. Passing IQT, then MQT, going for 2-ship FLUG, then commanding a 4-ship. Why not challenge ourselves with showing the beauty of co-op MP to those who are unaware of it?
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
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Oh no, not you at all! I was referring to my own comment of “please allow me to comment further on just this point” from the first of the two above posts, just to turn around and comment on another. :uham:
Haha… gotcha! I was worried there for a bit, thinking that I implied something that negative.
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I’m going to attempt to shine a little more light on this subject, and perhaps explain why a lot of instructors/VFW’s (especially the senior/tenured ones) tend to shy away from “FNG” training. An example:
A VFW has 3 pilots. These guys started at the same time, learned together, and have progressed together as team. They have since decided to “open their doors” and bring in some fresh blood. All 3 of them are willing to teach the basics on up. They conduct an interview with a new candidate and give him/her the green light. These guys take the time to teach it all… cockpit orientation, TNFL (takeoff/navigation/formation/landing) and they taught it well. 5 weeks worth. At this time, they’ve had no chance to do anything in the sim other than instruct the newbie. No flights of their own. No personal gains. 5 weeks devoted to another flier. Then comes COMBAT training. 2 days into it and the student just vanishes… several attempts are made to find out why and a generic “I’m too busy” response is all they get. 5+weeks basically wasted.
They don’t get disheartened, they don’t give up. They try again. This time it’s a winner. Line basics are done, combat basics are done. They start on some advanced stuff, and one of the IP’s gets a real life curve ball thrown their way. A hopeful and potential 4 ship has just been lost. Gotta get that 4th guy!
Another interview, another promising candidate. It doesn’t work.
ANOTHER interview, this one makes it through the basics but again the wheels fall off during the combat phase.
During all this time, the core group still hasn’t flown together. They haven’t progressed in their own flying. In fact, they’ve lost proficiency in what they already had. And now, they’re down a core member. They’ve got a guy who’s gone through the basics, but then had to stop his/her progression due to attempting to bring in that other new person.
Do this for a year. Two, five, ten…
I hope this shines some light on why there’s a base-line expectation. There can be so much to lose behind the scenes that frankly… a new pilot knows nothing about. Remember a VFW wants to build a TEAM who fly TOGETHER. A new candidate who can’t show one iota of a team minded approach just will not fit in. They can’t be expected to, and they most likely won’t be given a chance. Nor should they be.
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@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
Agreed, I was just giving you the opposite side of the coin.
Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
They lie they make you think you’ll be in a wonderful life where in fact you will study, loose all social life but with your pairs, probably never have a decent family life all this for less than one hour flying per week
Okay okay, that’s venting some past experience It’s not always like that luckily !!If I tell somebody he’ll need to go through A, B, and C and it’ll take XX hours before he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around?
If I tell that same guy to give me 30 minutes of his time and he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around? Sure, his takeoff will be sloppy. Sure, we’ll do a Taxi or Runway start instead of a Ramp start. He won’t be able to do formation flying and I bet he’d rather poke his eyes out than tank. He’ll also probably scrape the brakes on the jet when landing, that is if he doesn’t come down too hard and break the landing gear! But he’s had fun! What are the chances of him sticking around?That’s assuming VFW do that, we don’t. Matter of fact, dropping a bomb is done even before training, at the guest flight and even the first training flight use dumb bomb.
So the assessment is incorrect. that’s also the reason - as I said before - that most of VFW don’t restrict TE’s to recruits, because it has a motivation factor, exactly as I explained earlier.Flying for real is easy, a kid of 10 years and my grandma can do it. Flying precisely and putting these wheels exactly on the spot the pilot decided is difficult and require a lot of practise
it’s the same for flight sims. Everybody can do it. Die and start again. But doing it precisely is where the intensive work is required. Once again, different VFW, different goals.But I don’t think that even in the most hardcore VFW, it takes XX hours before dropping a single bombs.
Spoonfeeding - that’s the extreme end. I’m talking more like “concentrate on chapters 8-10 and we’ll talk about that next week.” That’s what my university professors did, and they did not even cover EVERYTHING on chapters 8-10, just the important parts.
We always say learning BMS is like eating the elephant –- it’s best to do so one bite at a time. It’s even better when people tell us which parts of the elephant is best to start on.again, that’s what VFW do. The training program and TE clearly refers to specific chapters in the manuals according to the training flight goals.
Enjoyment - Sure, I see what you’re saying. But will the 4 guys enjoy flying with each other all the time forever? What happens when one of them can’t make it? Or the 2nd one has to bail out due to family/work/life? We need new blood, and those with experience will have to make allowances.
Sure, that’s why we invest so much time in training. But the old heads are usually pretty stable in the long term, because they have been through it all and their motivation is not questioned. Yet some get biased or leave the hobby for sure. But how come the new guys aren’t so stable and have so high washout rate?
You’ve cited the extreme example here, one guy goes lone wolf and the whole group gets screwed. Option 1 - let him go and find his own “Air Quake” buddies. Option 2 - show him the error of his ways and how mutual support and real-life tactics make things much better for all involved.
indeed. and we’re back to square 1
Type B pilot
Those who learned from their mistake will be type C pilot, but a few guys can’t get the message and will still screw up the next time. Because their need to blow up things is greater than what the VFW have been told them. that’s usually the moment they become a liability and a problem. In real life, they are thrown out of the program.We all talk about challenging ourselves, learning new stuff, going for the next level. Passing IQT, then MQT, going for 2-ship FLUG, then commanding a 4-ship. Why not challenge ourselves with showing the beauty of co-op MP to those who are unaware of it?
Some of us have that tee shirt already, which is why we can talk about it at length in this topic
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
What about timing constraint. If the TE’s is TOS sensitive and a guy needing 15 minutes to tank?
What about if that same guy crashes at the airstrip for hotpit refuel because he can’t learn short field technique?
What about pressing as a 3 ship after a tank abort, what about mutual self support?
As a flight lead, do you let that guy go home or alternate single ship, without mutual support or cover? and is the 2 ship left out to carry the mission specific is enough for mission success?
What about a TvT environment where there is no alternate airbase?We can discuss all night long with argument and counter argument, bith side are valid, but proficiency should be acquired in training to avoid these issues.
If one guy can’t cope, he’s a liability to the rest of the guys, sorry
HE’s been trained, he didn’t try enough, he’s been trained again and still can’t do it? There is really a lack of ‘something’ then -
Surprised to read the high percentage (in some cases seems 100%) of available flight time given up for the recruit. I suppose it’s in relation to the overall size of group. Personally I would be pleased and grateful to receive 1hr a week and would hope the group would be enjoying themselves for at least 3 times that amount. Wouldn’t wish to think it had come to a halt whilst a trainee got all available time. That would be intense pressure in fact.
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I’m going to attempt to shine a little more light on this subject, and perhaps explain why a lot of instructors/VFW’s (especially the senior/tenured ones) tend to shy away from “FNG” training. An example:
A VFW has 3 pilots. These guys started at the same time, learned together, and have progressed together as team. They have since decided to “open their doors” and bring in some fresh blood. All 3 of them are willing to teach the basics on up. They conduct an interview with a new candidate and give him/her the green light. These guys take the time to teach it all… cockpit orientation, TNFL (takeoff/navigation/formation/landing) and they taught it well. 5 weeks worth. At this time, they’ve had no chance to do anything in the sim other than instruct the newbie. No flights of their own. No personal gains. 5 weeks devoted to another flier. Then comes COMBAT training. 2 days into it and the student just vanishes… several attempts are made to find out why and a generic “I’m too busy” response is all they get. 5+weeks basically wasted.
They don’t get disheartened, they don’t give up. They try again. This time it’s a winner. Line basics are done, combat basics are done. They start on some advanced stuff, and one of the IP’s gets a real life curve ball thrown their way. A hopeful and potential 4 ship has just been lost. Gotta get that 4th guy!
Another interview, another promising candidate. It doesn’t work.
ANOTHER interview, this one makes it through the basics but again the wheels fall off during the combat phase.
During all this time, the core group still hasn’t flown together. They haven’t progressed in their own flying. In fact, they’ve lost proficiency in what they already had. And now, they’re down a core member. They’ve got a guy who’s gone through the basics, but then had to stop his/her progression due to attempting to bring in that other new person.
Do this for a year. Two, five, ten…
I hope this shines some light on why there’s a base-line expectation. There can be so much to lose behind the scenes that frankly… a new pilot knows nothing about. Remember a VFW wants to build a TEAM who fly TOGETHER. A new candidate who can’t show one iota of a team minded approach just will not fit in. They can’t be expected to, and they most likely won’t be given a chance. Nor should they be.
Very well explained Creeper !!!
It’s not only about the candidate who needs to invest time into this. the team willing to form and train him invested way more and very often this group is at the edge. Both party work hard and then it will work, if only one party works hard, whatever side it is, then it will fail. Commitment comes from both side
Surprised to read the high percentage (in some cases seems 100%) of available flight time given up for the recruit. I suppose it’s in relation to the overall size of group. Personally I would be pleased and grateful to receive 1hr a week and would hope the group would be enjoying themselves for at least 3 times that amount. Wouldn’t wish to think it had come to a halt whilst a trainee got all available time. That would be intense pressure in fact.
yeah, it’s very often the case - you’re right it probably depends on the overall group size. If you’re able to allow 2 flights per week (and that’s already a lot considering a 1h flight time is probably a lot longer preparing, briefing, debriefing and assuring communications with the other IPs) and if you have 2 recruits assigned to you, there is nothing left to enjoy tactical combat TE.
I am aware my proficiency - and in the long term my motivation - suffered from that.
As a consequence I decided to slow down and reserve me time for what I like best. not exclusively, but both at the same time to keep a certain balance. But that decision came with experience and led me to my opinions nowadays -
Thanks for that info, Creeper. Believe it or not, I do know what you’re talking about.
While I also agree that there are some people who “can’t show one iota” of whatever, do know I was not referring to them but rather to those “potentials” that just needed that little bit of “extra.” As we all know, however, there is no way to reliably filter these “potentials” from the others.
So yes, it all boils down to effort put in vs. results and for some, the results just aren’t worth it.
@Red:
They lie
Haha! I’m sure they have a different term for that! Point still stands though!
@Red:
That’s assuming VFW do that, we don’t. Matter of fact, dropping a bomb is done even before training, at the guest flight and even the first training flight use dumb bomb.
So the assessment is incorrect. that’s also the reason - as I said before - that most of VFW don’t restrict TE’s to recruits, because it has a motivation factor, exactly as I explained earlier.Ah, fair deuce, and with that, I think we’re operating on the same page.
@Red:
Sure, that’s why we invest so much time in training. But the old heads are usually pretty stable in the long term, because they have been through it all and their motivation is not questioned. Yet some get biased or leave the hobby for sure. But how come the new guys aren’t so stable and have so high washout rate?
I won’t have the answer for that. Maybe it’s the new “Call of Duty” and “Battlefield” generation? Maybe it’s current RL pressures? That’s why I asked you earlier about the washout rate – the answer to that is your answer.
@Red:
Those who learned from their mistake will be type C pilot, but a few guys can’t get the message and will still screw up the next time. Because their need to blow up things is greater than what the VFW have been told them. that’s usually the moment they become a liability and a problem. In real life, they are thrown out of the program.
Yeah, if they want personal glory, throw them out. I, too, have no patience for Air Quakers. I will stretch my patience to those that struggle but are going in the right direction, but I agree that not everyone is going the right direction. The beauty of Falcon though is that those who think they are Ace Combat pilots soon learn that this is NOT the sim for them.
@Red:
What about timing constraint. If the TE’s is TOS sensitive and a guy needing 15 minutes to tank?
What about if that same guy crashes at the airstrip for hotpit refuel because he can’t learn short field technique?
What about pressing as a 3 ship after a tank abort, what about mutual self support?
As a flight lead, do you let that guy go home or alternate single ship, without mutual support or cover? and is the 2 ship left out to carry the mission specific is enough for mission success?
What about a TvT environment where there is no alternate airbase?We can discuss all night long with argument and counter argument, bith side are valid, but proficiency should be acquired in training to avoid these issues.
If one guy can’t cope, he’s a liability to the rest of the guys, sorry
HE’s been trained, he didn’t try enough, he’s been trained again and still can’t do it? There is really a lack of ‘something’ thenDepends… if the tanker track is close enough or the alternate is near the assembly point, then #4 could probably delay takeoff until the rest of the flight is done tanking. Having him join the flight, you will agree, is better than waiting for him for 15 minutes as he tries to tank.
I think you slightly missed my point here. My point was that “alternative measures” could be taken to cover a weakness, in this case flying out of a closer airbase to offset fuel usage that would require tanking skills. The scenario was that #4 would join the flight just before “mutual support” or “cover” was expected to be needed, ie, behind the FLOT.
Also, I’m not saying this is the situation indefinitely, but rather as an interim measure as his skills/budget/hardware improve Read post #84, last paragraph. Not an argument about skill or training, but rather limitations imposed by hardware — and how the VFW can adjust to suit.
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yeah, we’re on the same page, I know you played devil’s advocate.
rest assured that in our VFW we go the extra mile for most if not all candidates. And that’s why it’s hard to see them go at a moment or another.
And seeing the success of the other VFW, I am sure it’s the same on their side of the fence.I hope that this topic not only serves the purpose to share information between VFW managers but also shows a bit what we expect from candidates. It’s important that candidates reckon the level of work and kind of investment some guys are making to train them.
Regardless of all what’s been said here, it’s fun and opens great door with many different individuals.
Should I start over, I’d redo the exact same. Proof that even if I am sometimes frustrated about it, I still love doing it and sharing the MP possibilities BMS has to offer -
I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career. Sure, some people fit your criteria (hardcore) and I’d like to think I’m one of them, but I’m afraid most people may move on to something else before the building blocks all come together if there’s no one to show them how things come together.
Another aspect I’d like to put forward is that a new pilot may not realize there is a better way of doing things aside from what he’s doing now. Something like “you don’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone,” but this time it’s “you don’t know what you’re missing if you don’t even know it exists.” How many times have you come across someone who has said “no, that’s not for me” only to try it and say “OMG! This is awesome!!”? Whether the topic is food, an experience, a hobby, whatever… sometimes, you have to nudge (or PUSH!!) the people the right way a few times and then they’ll bite.
I’m not sure I see it the same way as you. I don’t believe we confuse a hobby for career. Just because something is a hobby doesn’t mean you have to do things sloppy, use it as excuse for lack of effort, or any of the myriad of reasons folks don’t put in their best. It doesn’t take all that much to be “hardcore.” And if folks are too impatient to develop themselves then they never had it to begin with, there isn’t really a loss there. They weren’t a part of it anyway, it’s just some guy “passing through” this part of town.
Now as far as giving that nudge a new guy needs, that’s what our local area orientation flight is for. It’s part of the interview and let’s the prospective pilot get a sense of the work it takes in a “high level” wing, let’s us assess where the student is at already, and let them decide if what we do is really for them. All that’s in place already. The pilots don’t show up out of a vacuum and learn the tactics, it’s all building blocks that add on the last lesson learned plus what they’ve taught themselves before coming to the wing. So that’s the push, hopefully the pick up the ball and run with it. If they don’t then there is maybe a wing with pilots at the skill level they’re looking for.
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Excellent point, but who is going to highlight which parts are important and which parts aren’t? This is like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and then someone shows that young medical student ALL the books he will cover during his first year of training and then leaving him to it. Well, he wants to be a doctor so he should “take care of himself” and read those books. Not really a good way to start.
No, its not, and you had to misread my post to get to that idea in the first place. I just finished saying how the manual is great for one thing, and tutorials where you explain the important stuff from the manual are great for another thing, but you pick out just the part about the manuals being great. To answer the question, the IP is going to highlight which parts are important. Its not at all like telling someone to read the manual and leaving them to it - if you think that constitutes instruction, you have another think coming.
I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career.
I have heard this so many times. You would think it would have stopped stinging me, that I would be numb to it. But no, it is just as frustrating as the first time someone told me that I was putting too much effort into something that is ‘only a hobby’. If everyone listened to that statement, there would be no replica cockpits.
@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
I’m not saying this sim is easy, I’m not saying people will “get it” in 2-3 weeks. What I’m saying is that if you (we) fail to “catch” people with their embers glowing, we are missing out on potential. Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
Well, the RAAF and RAN recruiters I spoke too both spoke more about the drawbacks than the perks. Still, you just finished telling me I dont know the difference between a job and a hobby, so whats it matter whether its for a job or not?
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
See, this is a common opinion in the world of Falcon. Folks are spoiled from flying out of the worlds most forward deployed airbases. Its not unusual in the real world for a combat mission to be 700 miles both ways. Often, the answer to how hard is it to move the squadron closer to the FLOT is very, or impossible. An alternate becomes a pain for recovery, particularly if they are not an F-16 base.
Im not seeing what you are trying to get at, -Ice. No animosity here, Im just not understanding the argument you are trying to make here.
EDIT: Sniped!
I’m not sure I see it the same way as you. I don’t believe we confuse a hobby for career. Just because something is a hobby doesn’t mean you have to do things sloppy, use it as excuse for lack of effort, or any of the myriad of reasons folks don’t put in their best. It doesn’t take all that much to be “hardcore.” And if folks are too impatient to develop themselves then they never had it to begin with, there isn’t really a loss there. They weren’t a part of it anyway, it’s just some guy “passing through” this part of town.
Far better said than I managed. Well put.
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I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career. Sure, some people fit your criteria (hardcore) and I’d like to think I’m one of them, but I’m afraid most people may move on to something else before the building blocks all come together if there’s no one to show them how things come together.
This goes back to the definition of fun and enjoyment. What we find enjoyable at the 8th is simulating USAF F-16 operations to the maximum extent possible given the limitations of BMS. That means reading a LOT of manuals and instructional documentation. It means hundreds of hours of training. As you mentioned someone else may find enjoyment in spamming AMRAAMs and then bugging out after watching 1 tutorial on how to lock up a target and pickle. Would that person have fun in our VFW? Nope. Does that mean we have to bend over backwards and change the way we have fun to make sure they stick with us/BMS? Nope. There are a myriad of other VFWs available for them to investigate including ones that will allow them to skip the tanker and divert, fly inverted formation, drop B-61’s on The Supreme Leader’s fat head, land a Viper on a carrier, or whatever else may suit their fancy.
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@Red:
yeah, we’re on the same page, I know you played devil’s advocate.
rest assured that in our VFW we go the extra mile for most if not all candidates. And that’s why it’s hard to see them go at a moment or another.
And seeing the success of the other VFW, I am sure it’s the same on their side of the fence.I hope that this topic not only serves the purpose to share information between VFW managers but also shows a bit what we expect from candidates. It’s important that candidates reckon the level of work and kind of investment some guys are making to train them.
Regardless of all what’s been said here, it’s fun and opens great door with many different individuals.
Should I start over, I’d redo the exact same. Proof that even if I am sometimes frustrated about it, I still love doing it and sharing the MP possibilities BMS has to offerIndeed, I have experienced the burnout and frustration that you are talking about but if I could do it again, I would. The joy is not only in improving myself for the sim but also sharing my skills and learning from others. Without “paying it forward,” we would be nowhere.
One thing though –- going the extra mile may seem like a lost cause, but if the candidate did bow out for a genuine reason, then at least you’ve left a good impression on him and hopefully he returns once his time/money/resources allow.
I’m not sure I see it the same way as you. I don’t believe we confuse a hobby for career. Just because something is a hobby doesn’t mean you have to do things sloppy, use it as excuse for lack of effort, or any of the myriad of reasons folks don’t put in their best. It doesn’t take all that much to be “hardcore.” And if folks are too impatient to develop themselves then they never had it to begin with, there isn’t really a loss there. They weren’t a part of it anyway, it’s just some guy “passing through” this part of town.
Just because someone does not do it “full real” does not mean it’s sloppy or lack of effort. It may be the best they can do, or the best they know how to do. What I meant with regards to hobby vs. career is the amount of time and effort a person would be willing to put into it. If you only had 20 hours of free time during the week, and you had to catch up on work, would you be studying manuals (hobby) or would you be catching up on work (career)? That’s what I meant – prioritization. Some people just do not have the time needed to be able to go “full real,” just like some people do replica cockpits while some have to settle for chair or table mods. Doesn’t mean that the guy with a table mod is sloppy or lazy… he might just not have the time/skills/space/resources for a replica cockpit.
As for the “impatient to develop themselves,” well, that’s a very unfair and elitist way of looking at things. Again, this is a hobby… if they are here for instant gratification, like a dogfighting TE, what’s wrong with that? They could be “hardcore” there, but just can’t afford to be “hardcore” in a campaign. Sure, the guy may be “passing through,” but you could never tell whether he had “it” or not… he might have, he just wasn’t able to show it.
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Just because someone does not do it “full real” does not mean it’s sloppy or lack of effort. It may be the best they can do, or the best they know how to do. What I meant with regards to hobby vs. career is the amount of time and effort a person would be willing to put into it. If you only had 20 hours of free time during the week, and you had to catch up on work, would you be studying manuals (hobby) or would you be catching up on work (career)? That’s what I meant – prioritization. Some people just do not have the time needed to be able to go “full real,” just like some people do replica cockpits while some have to settle for chair or table mods. Doesn’t mean that the guy with a table mod is sloppy or lazy… he might just not have the time/skills/space/resources for a replica cockpit.
As for the “impatient to develop themselves,” well, that’s a very unfair and elitist way of looking at things. Again, this is a hobby… if they are here for instant gratification, like a dogfighting TE, what’s wrong with that? They could be “hardcore” there, but just can’t afford to be “hardcore” in a campaign. Sure, the guy may be “passing through,” but you could never tell whether he had “it” or not… he might have, he just wasn’t able to show it.
Again what I’m seeing is the aversion to doing more than the bare minimums, likes its kooties, from a girl at the school yard hahaha. Your example isn’t really an argument. If they have 20 hours of free time, then it’s not career time for work. Plus 20 hours per week is a TON of time. We just need our pilots to fly 2 hours per week to become “full real” or one IQT flight per week. You’re telling me you don’t have the free time to do one “hardcore” flight per week? So yes there is no excuse to not become absolutely great. I personally believe every person can be absolutely great!
I don’t see how wishing folks would improve themselves as elitism or unfair. Why do people settle? Why do folks go with “good enough?” It’s not about being “hardcore” it’s about gaining knowledge in the support of our hobby. Again, -Ice you will probably fly this simulator 3-5 years maybe even 10 years. You’re telling me at the end of that decade a person doesn’t grow beyond that same level they started, while I don’t see anything wrong with it per se, but why would you do something that long to not get really really good at it? Finally the very last sentence is a cop out, that’s what folks say when they don’t have the skills or knowledge, like a business saying we have a great product but we never got to show it. I think it kind of rests on the individuals shoulders whether or not they’re going to show it or not. I don’t know why it’s offensive for some to have standards and expectations, and the right of a VFW to decline spending that hard earned free time if I’m just going by your example, I’m going to spend that 20 hours with guys who “deserve” it.
Now to get the thread back to training ideas……
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No, its not, and you had to misread my post to get to that idea in the first place. I just finished saying how the manual is great for one thing, and tutorials where you explain the important stuff from the manual are great for another thing, but you pick out just the part about the manuals being great. To answer the question, the IP is going to highlight which parts are important. Its not at all like telling someone to read the manual and leaving them to it - if you think that constitutes instruction, you have another think coming.
Did I? Let me dig it up again:
I reckon some of those modalities ARE necessarily better - but not in absolute terms. Completely agree that a well rounded training program needs to make use of different modes of learning, though. The way I see it, that 400 page manual is excellent for covering a topic in detail. There’s a reason they exist. You dont need to memorise the dash, but some parts of it are essential, while others are ‘nice to know, but it can be looked up in flight if necessary’. On the other hand, a video (IF done properly, and there are a lot that are not) is a great way to engage the viewer, and make strong use of visuals to reinforce complex ideas. Finally, it doesnt matter how poorly you learn by doing - if you cant reproduce the ideas that you had on the ground, in the air, then you will not meet the standard expected of you. You need to get stick time, in conjunction with ground learning and self study.
Nothing there about an IP, just that “the manuals exist, read it, parts of it are ‘nice to know,’ etc.”
However, if you did mean that and I missed it, I apologize. I agree the manual now is better, and is definitely miles ahead of – ahem! – others. The training manual is great too, so that lowers the barrier to self-study quite a bit.
As for the “it’s only a hobby” statement, well, that is true. No need to get upset. It’s just like some people referring to this as a “game” and suddenly, the forums are awash with vitriol! With regards to replica cockpits, refer to my post above… a lot of resources, free time, and a good amount of skill are required for a replica pit. Take away even just one of those and viola! No pit. Or one ordered custom made — but that’ll cost even more!
Well, the RAAF and RAN recruiters I spoke too both spoke more about the drawbacks than the perks. Still, you just finished telling me I dont know the difference between a job and a hobby, so whats it matter whether its for a job or not?
And you spoke to them when? Did they tell you outright or did you have to ask? Do they do this to ALL they try to recruit?
I’m not sure I understand where you’re going with your remark about job vs. hobby though.
See, this is a common opinion in the world of Falcon. Folks are spoiled from flying out of the worlds most forward deployed airbases. Its not unusual in the real world for a combat mission to be 700 miles both ways. Often, the answer to how hard is it to move the squadron closer to the FLOT is very, or impossible. An alternate becomes a pain for recovery, particularly if they are not an F-16 base.
Im not seeing what you are trying to get at, -Ice. No animosity here, Im just not understanding the argument you are trying to make here.
No, nothing like that at all. Refer to my reply to Red Dog above.
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by the way, building a real pit is one important cause for inactivity. Temporary I reckon. We have at least 3 guys in reserve because of pit building duties
It’s a good sign, I know these guys will be back and I know they are stickers - otherwise they wouldn’t build a pit.
Been there before and I got the tee shirt to prove it
except I never stopped flying , even in the building stages -
Again what I’m seeing is the aversion to doing more than the bare minimums, likes its kooties, from a girl at the school yard hahaha. Your example isn’t really an argument. If they have 20 hours of free time, then it’s not career time for work. Plus 20 hours per week is a TON of time. We just need our pilots to fly 2 hours per week to become “full real” or one IQT flight per week. You’re telling me you don’t have the free time to do one “hardcore” flight per week? So yes there is no excuse to not become absolutely great. I personally believe every person can be absolutely great!
Sorry about the 20 hours thing, I was just throwing a number out. Point was, prioritization comes into play. Whether it be work, family, other hobbies, or studying to be “full real.” I also don’t agree with your statement “it doesn’t take all that much to be ‘hardcore’”…. yes, yes it does. It’s what separates good musicians with great musicians. Sure, they may only practice for a few hours everyday, but over the years, it adds up. Some people do not have the “few hours everyday” or if they do, they can’t allocate it to music practice. Maybe they only have a few hours during the week. Over the years, they still fall short compared to those who practice everyday so again, that’s what separates good musicians from great ones.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean about you seeing people’s aversion to becoming great. Some may not have the skills, some may have the skills but lack practice, some may have the skills but lack the confidence, and so on. Not everyone can be great; see Red Dog’s classification of A/B/C types of simmers. Or maybe everyone can be absolutely great, just not everyone being great at flight simming… and that takes it out of our converstation.
I don’t see how wishing folks would improve themselves as elitism or unfair. Why do people settle? Why do folks go with “good enough?” It’s not about being “hardcore” it’s about gaining knowledge in the support of our hobby. Again, -Ice you will probably fly this simulator 3-5 years maybe even 10 years. You’re telling me at the end of that decade a person doesn’t grow beyond that same level they started, while I don’t see anything wrong with it per se, but why would you do something that long to not get really really good at it? Finally the very last sentence is a cop out, that’s what folks say when they don’t have the skills or knowledge, like a business saying we have a great product but we never got to show it. I think it kind of rests on the individuals shoulders whether or not they’re going to show it or not. I don’t know why it’s offensive for some to have standards and expectations, and the right of a VFW to decline spending that hard earned free time if I’m just going by your example, I’m going to spend that 20 hours with guys who “deserve” it.
You weren’t wishing folks to improve themselves. Your statement was “if they are too impatient to develop themselves, there’s no loss, they weren’t a part of it, they were a nobody, just passing through.” You’re saying that if people don’t improve themselves, they’re nothing.
Are you really sure people “settle”? Are you sure they’re happy with “good enough”? Again, maybe they just don’t have the time, or the hardware, or the skills, or the guidance. You’ll never know if you don’t engage with that person. Sure, some don’t have the drive, some don’t have the skills, and so on, but you’ll never know.
Now to get the thread back to training ideas……
Haha!! Yes, I do apologize for derailing this thread… it is, after all, training ideas, not recruitment
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@Red:
by the way, building a real pit is one important cause for inactivity. Temporary I reckon. We have at least 3 guys in reserve because of pit building duties
It’s a good sign, I know these guys will be back and I know they are stickers - otherwise they wouldn’t build a pit.
Been there before and I got the tee shirt to prove it
except I never stopped flying , even in the building stagesPreaching to the choir here. Luckily, I forecast my current pit will be done in time for winter. With five LCD screens, it’ll be great for warming up the gaming room!!
Unfortunately, because of the pit in progress, my hardware is on a study desk and I refuse to fly in a non-ergonomic setup.