WIP: F-14 B/D
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While awaiting replies from our model/engine gurus I’ve done some more research and this leads me to the following:
Single object/single mesh throughout the model and all related parts is not feasible and would add tons of unnecessary geometry
Single object/multi mesh seems most sensible (especially for moving parts, I repeatedly saw variations of Arty’s comment when it comes to that)
Low-poly version (lower LODs) will have to be single object single mesh for multiple reasons and I’ll model it accordingly
**So the question is how ‘multi mesh’ can it get? Potential issues affecting the answer:
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number of draw calls < do single object - multi mesh models result in multiple draw calls if all textures are on a single map?
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graphics problems resulting from overlapping geometry (two faces occupying the same space) such as z-fighting or other problems
Most comments I’ve found more or less said ‘it depends’. My priorities are highest possible performance and optimization with the highest possible level of detail.
Before anyone thinks this will extremely delay the project don’t worry. On a side note I can tell you that this model achieves a level of detail and authenticity in certain areas that surpass most other models available for use in sims (including the one once displayed in this forum) at a polycount that is 50-70% lower ;).**
In any case looking forward to MOAR input. -
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In case I was unclear, separate textures also (typically) mean additional draw calls in the gl4 stuff I’m familiar with. Thanks Arty for pointing that out! But the multiple textures can be combined into a single big texture with lots of discrete areas for different bits and that should, ehm err, could reduce it to a single call.
FYI this is the standard operating procedure for models in Falcon anyway as of now. Usually you have 3 textures as Arty pointed out and one of them is the single 2048x2048 or 4096x4096 texture including most of the A/C’s textures. Question is as I addressed above if there’s still multiple draw calls with single object/multi mesh models. FYI the old F-14 model (~2004) had 6 1024x1024 textures for the jet alone and three more for engine/burner, pilots/cockpit and specific weapons - obviously not optimized too much but due to the relatively low complexity virtually no impact on performance.
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Pete,
regarding the drawcalls and regarding modelling (not unwrapping/texturing),
and with your sensor/pitot example…See…
Every change in smoothing groups force a drawcall.Let’s assume your fuselage would need just 1 drawcall,
and your sensor another 1 drawcall.Now if you would add your sensor mesh/object to the fuselage,
(which will result to a single fuselage mesh/object)
then it would add tons of unnecessary geometry as you said.BUT if all those tris would have the same smoothgroup,
this would result in just 1 drawcall, regardless how high the triscount is.The result on the model will not satisfy you, because you’ll get strange
shadowing on the fuelage/sensors - connection edge until you add even
some more geometry there to get a smooth connection.Now in this case we don’t want a smooth connection,
because that sensor is a part which is on top of the fuselage in RL,
means we want a hard edge, right?So you select those tris of the sensor and give them a differently smoothgroup,
which results in the look you want on the model, but you need now 2 drawcalls again.Additionally you’ve added unnecessary geometry for “nothing” so to speak.
Conclusion:
Simply move your sensor ontop of your fuselage as you already did,
better said … move the sensor a little bit into the fuselage,
to avoid a see through insim and you’re fine.I hope you could follow my “3dsmax” language and this answers your Q.
Dave or Robert will please correct me if I’m wrong.
Now Baby, rock on, on this Baby, … Baby!
Cheers,
LS -
Wow, I hadn’t thought about it in those terms but now that you mention it it makes perfect sense. I understand what you’re saying wrt the smoothing groups, that is actually exactly what I would’ve done if I had attached the sensor to the fuselage I would have ‘marked the edges sharp’ which is the Blender way of saying smooth group separation and the resulting two draw calls AND all the geometry would have rendered the whole thing useless as I’d still end up with 2 draw calls.
Thanks for the clarification!!
You just saved me a ton of tris by the way because I can now clean up all the areas of the model that I built with this approach (make it one mesh, add all necessary geometry then split it by separating smoothing groups). Shit man I wanna cry, that would’ve saved me like 300 hours :D.
Haha…on it goes.
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Ask Wavey Dave and Pumpy… send them a PM as I don’t see them participate…
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Ask Wavey Dave and Pumpy… send them a PM as I don’t see them participate…
Tranquilo, hombre They will if they feel they need to.
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My aviation museum closed a few months ago.
random Off Topic neat time lapse video, right around 1:50 it gets to the SR-71 tear down, the F14D is visible in some shots.
last time I drove by the D was still there.
more On Topic Vid series:
Read a paper a week ago saying that to update the cat for NVGs compatibility all they did was add a few filters to things, and then illuminate the whole cockpit with add-on green flood lighting, and just left all the older red & white lighting in place and the aviators just didn’t use it anymore. Can 't seem to find it at the moment though.
[edit] looks like it was Night Vision for the F-14 Tomcat by Mike Rabens , the guy up there ^
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Been working on the landing gear as the last big hurdle standing :). The nose and main landing gear doors and fuselage parts have been separated from the main fuselage and all parts have been parented accordingly. I’ve added some orientation transformations as to be able to move parts at the correct angle such as main strut lower part ‘sliding’ out of the upper part.
Also in order to finalize hard surface modeling on the gear and the fuselage parts I’m rigging the landing gear simplistically with empties, constraints, parent/child relationships and manipulating object origins as pivot points. This can all be exported to 3DS but of course once there the plugin will have to be used to redo it in detail.
Currently some of my control arms are not tracking to the empties (scissor arms on bottom and main support beams on top) as they should. Still looking for what the problem is but should be resolved soon.
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Final step initiated…3ds import. For anyone who ever had any doubts…I had them too :D.
But with a little tweaking I was able to import pretty much everything without any loss. Once you get a hold of it it really works like a charm. I’m almost tempted to finish the modeling in 3ds but Blender has been such a faithful companion that I’ll stick to it until nothing else can be done in it.
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Final step initiated…3ds import. For anyone who ever had any doubts…I had them too :D.
But with a little tweaking I was able to import pretty much everything without any loss. Once you get a hold of it it really works like a charm. I’m almost tempted to finish the modeling in 3ds but Blender has been such a faithful companion that I’ll stick to it until nothing else can be done in it.
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8553/29483146814_e91662659d_h.jpg
Once in 3dsmax, as I’m curious about the tri - count there, can you please …
Select all objects with ctrl+A.
Click “Utilities” (the hammer on the right side) -> “More…” -> “Polygon Counter”
In the opening window mark the “Count Triangles”.Now tell me the tris- count of the selected objects, please.
Cheers,
LS -
Not sure what that would tell you but the numbers were 57k polygons and 62k triangles.
Needless to say that’s no where near a final number for the import as there are multiple duplicate objects and 3ds re-triangulated everything meaning also areas that haven’t been optimized yet.
In the end it’ll be something like 45k as in Blender that is as of now.
Once in 3dsmax, as I’m curious about the tri - count there, can you please …
Select all objects with ctrl+A.
Click “Utilities” (the hammer on the right side) -> “More…” -> “Polygon Counter”
In the opening window mark the “Count Triangles”.Now tell me the tris- count of the selected objects, please.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/lazystone/Smileys/popcorn.gifCheers,http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/lazystone/Smileys/hat_3.gif
LS -
So “stingray”, are we near finals?
Oh God, I hope so because I’m a hell lover of the Tomcat… :bdance:
Stay on track mate, and Thank you very-very much!
Nikos. -
Thanks Pete.
there are multiple duplicate objects and 3ds re-triangulated everything meaning also areas that haven’t been optimized yet.
Oh, OK, … then the tri- count isn’t important atm.
… sounds like the export from Blender to 3DSmax needs an huge extra effort.
Sent from my laptop using keyboard.
Cheers,
LS -
Not really. In fact it’s just a question of trial and error when it comes to importing as 3ds provides many options there. The work left to do in Blender is mostly in line with what I need to do anyway to finish.
If you have a finished model you can import the whole thing (including objects with relevant names and relationships, texcoords, mapping, textures and materials) into 3ds without a loss with some trickery.
BUT my model isn’t finished yet. It’s just that I had to check it now to ensure that any work left is not for nothing.
As far as rigging the model goes I’m trying to minimize that to the parts I need it for in order to finish the modeling, for instance I cannot finish modeling the MLG if I cannot retract it into place because Grumman was so sneaky with the design :). When the wings are at 0 sweep the edges around the pivot point protrude into the main landing gear wheel housing. Stuff like that will have to be fixed because my expectation is to have a model that accurately represents real life shapes and proportions without compromise.
Hydraulic lines and structural reinforcements that’s details but the general shape has to work for the model to be true value to you guys and not just a cosmetic enhancement - that could have already been done 6 months ago.
Oh, OK, … then the tri- count isn’t important atm.
It is important one way or the other. Right now we stand at at least 45k, add in the pit and some details make that 50-55k. Too much. My plan is to reduce tris count by ‘disconnecting’ many parts that are now in the mesh as per our discussion last week. Secondly in some areas (engine housing, intake and front fuselage) there is excess geometry that can be reduced. We’ll see where we stand after that.
The cockpit in simplistic terms will need at least 4000 tris. The landing gear can be reduced to 10k (currently at 12k and change). Stuff like exhaust pedals (4k), wings (10k) and so on can only be reduced so much and most of it has been done by now.
'nuff said, Baby.
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So “stingray”, are we near finals?
Oh God, I hope so because I’m a hell lover of the Tomcat… :bdance:
Stay on track mate, and Thank you very-very much!
Nikos.Once I finish the landing gear and cockpit and close the chapter on hard surface modeling we’re talking 80% there. At that point I’ll import it into Falcon and flight/avionics tests can begin while I do the mapping.
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Finalized weapon rails. Completely reworked the rails themselves they were way to narrow and too high, corrected now. Also the aft rails are longer, only saw that when I checked reference images for the Phoenix.
Added umbilical bridges between the rails for AIM-54 and modeled the outer Phoenix pylons. You can’t see it but the rails, fairings and pylons are modeled around the missile head kind of like a glove, doesn’t intersect though.
Added a 4 missile bay setup, never deployed on B/D cats but nice to look at :).
100nm kills before breakfast, Baby.
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F-14 Pilot : “Phoenix, Phoenix, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come for you !”
MiG Pilot : “Holy shit…”:wfish:
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F-14 Pilot : “Phoenix, Phoenix, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come for you !”
MiG Pilot : “Holy shit…”:wfish:
As it Stands, with the current Ingame F-14 I’ve actually scored kills on Two MiG-21s at a launch range of 65 and 43 Nautical Miles.
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As it Stands, with the current Ingame F-14 I’ve actually scored kills on Two MiG-21s at a launch range of 65 and 43 Nautical Miles.
Sweeeet :). You using Molni’s launch profile for the Phoenix?