Player Controlled Ground Units
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@Cloud:
They are pre-defined and created icons.
To use another teams existing set for just an individual unit or several units would require that you create an entire new team within the campaign file. Basically you would have 2 teams that are the same but with different colors.
I was thinking originally there was explicit mapping between a type and a color icon. This wouldn’t work though because multiple teams can have the same units with different colors. Point taken.
You would have to create an additional Icon then, or if you don’t need super pretty 2D pictures you could use an icon for a boat on land. New icons aren’t hard to do though, a simple subtle change to an existing icon with say a line underneath or a U superimposed over the image would only take a few seconds to create. You would need to add it to the Icon index though.
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The only actual or practical suggestion I’ve seen here in this thread is if the units glowed or pulsated if moved by the user. But that’s pretty far fetched in my opinion as BMS has tons of other practical things to work on.
This is kind of the point. If there is a relatively easy/quick way to “implement” a feature that makes things easier for the user, but doesn’t require the team to get involved or code anything, isn’t that worth a few hours of tinkering around?
C9
Now I’m curious how it all shakes out. I’m going to try to go through the process this weekend to see what all it entails, I’ll post the process for you -Vandal- if/when I get a chance to look at it.
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This is why you MUST make a backup before you start playing around, and only use F4Browse for the absolute minimum changes required. In other words: Use it as little as possible and at your own risk. That should be enough to get you started. Once you get a feel for the structure and have a look at what you’re facing you can ask more pointed questions.
@Mortesil Cool Thanks and looking at it right now! Do I need to backup just the \Data files for the regular KTO or the \Data\Add-On xxx folders if just working with an add on theater? This first backup I am doing is of the entire installation but if possible I’d like to just back up the at risk files.
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Now I’m curious how it all shakes out. I’m going to try to go through the process this weekend to see what all it entails, I’ll post the process for you -Vandal- if/when I get a chance to look at it.
Sounds good! I am going to tinker around with it too so I have a better grasp of all this and should be able to understand your findings better.
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@Mortesil Cool Thanks and looking at it right now! Do I need to backup just the \Data files for the regular KTO or the \Data\Add-On xxx folders if just working with an add on theater? This first backup I am doing is of the entire installation but if possible I’d like to just back up the at risk files.
Someone else might be able to jump in here since I don’t have an installation to look at right now. You don’t need the terrain or texture files, which is a HUGE bulk of the installation. You can more or less copy everything else without those and it shouldn’t be much larger than a few hundred MB. Much easier than several GB for the entire installation.
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@Cloud:
They are pre-defined and created icons.
To use another teams existing set for just an individual unit or several units would require that you create an entire new team within the campaign file. Basically you would have 2 teams that are the same but with different colors.
So if you ask me this would be actually pretty ridiculous and a waste of time given the workings of Falcon when it comes to the campaign files.
I’ve already posted a solution to the problem, which is the way others have done it for years when keeping track of user moved units.
The only actual or practical suggestion I’ve seen here in this thread is if the units glowed or pulsated if moved by the user. But that’s pretty far fetched in my opinion as BMS has tons of other practical things to work on.
In the end, I believe if a player want’s to move units themselves then they should learn how to keep track of them. It’s not that hard. I’ve been doing it since Falcon 4.0 was released in 1998. Of course not in the few versions that didn’t allow the player to move units though.
C9
I can see why you have come to that conclusion. Mainly what I was trying to do was see if there was a way to use any of the editors to get the visual clue I thought would be nice. Sure if there is an ez coding fix, I would welcome that but I agree it’s not a priority (unless someone is actually working on updating 2D then I would suggest this be added to their checklist). Anyway, I was coming at this as someone that likes to tinker with stuff that’s not too difficult. I have been having a good time messing around with Mission Commander and for me this is just the evolution of my tinkering around with the Falcon files. So the attempt to mess around with this is – in large part for me – just about tinkering and learning on a small scale and that’s why I am still messing with it. In the meantime I have taken your advice when playing, but when tinkering this still seems like a small enough challenge that I can learn something by taking it on.
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@Cloud:
In the end, I believe if a player want’s to move units themselves then they should learn how to keep track of them. It’s not that hard. I’ve been doing it since Falcon 4.0 was released in 1998. Of course not in the few versions that didn’t allow the player to move units though.
I agree, my suggestions was more of an ‘it would be nice’ sort of thing. I have no trouble as it is finding those units. I don’t do much of this, and usually only as the units are nearing the objectives, sometime they will go right on past. So I give them a bit of direction. Other times they will do some stoopid stuff. Example: in a Tiger Spirit campaign the division in Wonsan had waypoints to close to Pyongyang. That would have left no Blue units on the east coast to go to Hamhung so I had to step in.
Anyway I know which units I have controlled and where I told them to go but you are right, it isn’t difficult. All this thread about is ways to find these units a bit more easily. Some players I imagine do a lot more of this than I do and in that case I could see having some difficulty.
Which F4 version was the first to allow control of ground units? I’ve always thought it was AF?
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Which F4 version was the first to allow control of ground units? I’ve always thought it was AF?
Nah, SP series you could move the units and in some FreeFalcon versions. I had the RP series also, but don’t remember.
C9
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So for the first go around playing with this I added a copy of an M1A1 battalion as a unit in the Balkan campaign (Index 661). I did not make a new class. I did not “duplicate associated CT also”. I assume CT means Class Table and that meant class table entry. There is a unit icon number which is 10010. I changed that to 10011 just to see what would happen. I opened Mission Commander and you add battalions by CT Index it seems and both the original M1A1 and the cloned M1A1 battalion have the same CT Index of 45. I could not add Index 661 as far as I could see. But I went ahead and added a new CTI 45 to the campaign. I fired up BMS TE and it only lists one M1A1 type battalion and I checked the campaign and it sure enough added my new M1A1 battalion to the OOB 15th Div, 11th Armored Brigade, 1st Armored Battalion. So about all I did was verify that changing the Icon number in the editor by 1 digit when cloning a unit to have the same CTI doesn’t seem to create a new unit that either the TE Editor or Mission Commander sees. So that’s puzzling to me, why have the ability to copy a unit in the editor if it cannot be seen by the sim?
UPDATE: So I reread some of @Mortesil’s posts and he mentions modifying a SAV file. Which I don’t what that is I don’t see any .sav files. Also, I think his second suggestion is to try cloning a class rather than just a unit, that might help, but I’ll see if anyone wants to give me a couple of pointers before trying to clone a class. I plan on doing it tomorrow as I am out of time today.
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Included with installation
Should be … (can’t check it from here)
… and accessible to the DB from the icon index?
… don’t know (?)
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This is kind of the point. If there is a relatively easy/quick way to “implement” a feature that makes things easier for the user, but doesn’t require the team to get involved or code anything, isn’t that worth a few hours of tinkering around?
You missed my point which was this wouldn’t be some easy end user implementation. To have units glow or pulsate would be a code fix, if this were to be done correctly.
I’m not trying to be critical of the idea, but I believe the way of tinkering away and creating a separate icon is more of a monkey wrench approach that won’t really work and look good at all. Of course it would be just one or two person(s) doing that, I understand, but I’d never use that approach.
C9
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So for the first go around playing with this I added a copy of an M1A1 battalion as a unit in the Balkan campaign (Index 661). I did not make a new class. I did not “duplicate associated CT also”. I assume CT means Class Table and that meant class table entry. There is a unit icon number which is 10010. I changed that to 10011 just to see what would happen. I opened Mission Commander and you add battalions by CT Index it seems and both the original M1A1 and the cloned M1A1 battalion have the same CT Index of 45. I could not add Index 661 as far as I could see. But I went ahead and added a new CTI 45 to the campaign. I fired up BMS TE and it only lists one M1A1 type battalion and I checked the campaign and it sure enough added my new M1A1 battalion to the OOB 15th Div, 11th Armored Brigade, 1st Armored Battalion. So about all I did was verify that changing the Icon number in the editor by 1 digit when cloning a unit to have the same CTI doesn’t seem to create a new unit that either the TE Editor or Mission Commander sees. So that’s puzzling to me, why have the ability to copy a unit in the editor if it cannot be seen by the sim?
UPDATE: So I reread some of @Mortesil’s posts and he mentions modifying a SAV file. Which I don’t what that is I don’t see any .sav files. Also, I think his second suggestion is to try cloning a class rather than just a unit, that might help, but I’ll see if anyone wants to give me a couple of pointers before trying to clone a class. I plan on doing it tomorrow as I am out of time today.
By SAV file I just meant your saved campaign file, not specifically a file with extension SAV.
Everything in the DB is hierarchical, the name unit can be misleading. The cloning is a useful way to have a starting point for something you are working on, but it isn’t a catch all, it just clones and you have to make the proper adjustments. For instance:
To create a new type AC–say an F16F with the EXACT same stats and model as an F16C-52. You could clone the -52 unit and you would have the extra type in the DB with EVERYTHING the same. So you change the basics, the name, cool description, etc… - which are all done in different locations and files - and try to find it in the TE…nothing. You created a type of aircraft but there is nothing actually pointing to it or using it inside the database. You also have to create a squadron item, with that aircraft type as it’s contents, and a new flight item with the new aircraft as it’s contents inside the database. This is not specifically the item that will be used in a campaign, such as the 2135th Fighter Squadron, it’s a template in the database that the game looks at when it needs to generate something with that Index–the template it uses to build the 2135th FS after it has been added to a campaign. The database is setup in a semi-relational manner, with a hint of OOP at it’s design, but not it’s implementation. In your mind you think pressing ‘Add Squadron’ pulls a hard coded template of what an aircraft squadron looks like, and you just supply the F16F type for the new squadron and the game does the rest. This is NOT true. The game expects a specific template for an F16F squadron - which very well could have an F16F, 2 B1-s, and an E3, because you have to set it all up in the database. To finish off our example, in the case of adding an aircraft type, you would also have to adjust the flyable aircraft for the theater, the master aircraft list (I believe TEPlanes.lst?), and several other lists/files. This is why I said earlier you would have to search through the installation files to see if there is a complete list of ground units listed or indexed somewhere (Maybe TEUnits? I honestly can’t remember). What gets displayed in the TE Editor and MC get compiled from several different sources and files, not just a complete rundown of what’s in the database.
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@Cloud:
You missed my point which was this wouldn’t be some easy end user implementation. To have units glow or pulsate would be a code fix, if this were to be done correctly.
I’m not trying to be critical of the idea, but I believe the way of tinkering away and creating a separate icon is more of a monkey wrench approach that won’t really work and look good at all. Of course it would be just one or two person(s) doing that, I understand, but I’d never use that approach.
C9
Fair enough. I didn’t particularly mean the pulsing effect-but the white contoured effect is just as good. The code fix piece would only help by automatically switching the icon to a different index if it was being user controlled. Here we are basically doing the same thing that I (and a lot of others) do in a campaign by adding an extra “squadron” that is always going to be User Controlled ONLY. The difference being if we want a quick way to identify them without sifting through the OoB, we have to make a small adjustment to the DB as well.
I just think the modified icons might be helpful for people who really like to control the ground war. This could be a very easy user fix if the icons already exist like Dee-Jay mentioned they might, and really only trivially harder if they don’t. Adding the new unit to the DB only takes a minute or two if you have the steps laid out in front of you–but I’m not willing to list them out until I get a chance to look at it and run through it once so I can avoid a hail of flaming for skipping a step while trying to recreate the procedure in my mind.
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…This is why I said earlier you would have to search through the installation files to see if there is a complete list of ground units listed or indexed somewhere (Maybe TEUnits? I honestly can’t remember). What gets displayed in the TE Editor and MC get compiled from several different sources and files, not just a complete rundown of what’s in the database.
Oh I guess I got too much RDBMS in me for that to have registered when you were first talking about it. Sorry. Well dang it, I wouldn’t have the foggiest where to start looking for a list which enables the relations (backwards and-or forwards). Shoot that’s a lot of digging. Surely somebody already knows those files and what tools are needed to edit them. If they happen to be in a database or binary file then I’ll need the right tool to read those as well. Hopefully, we get pointed in the right direction then. Otherwise, I’ll start digging through the files tomorrow. I’ll start in the Balkan add on theater folder and work through those subdirectories and come up with a list of possibilities.
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Okay I glanced through all of the files (in the original install and theater) and this is what I found to be some of the most likely candidates for the files that may need updating after using BMS Editor.
…Data\Sim\Vehdef
vehicle.lst (ascii)
…Data\Campaign\Save
korea.*
teunits.lst (ascii)
VALIDAC.ACT (ascii)
=== ART ===
…Data\Campaign\Art
Lots of *.lst files but they seem to reference *.irc files so probably the equivalent of an INCLUDE library statement for different modules of the program?
…Data\Campaign\Art\campaign\mission
IMAGERC.IRC
…Data\Campaign\Art\common
IMAGEIDS.ID
IMAGERC.IRC
…Data\Campaign\Art\resource
…Data\Campaign\Art\setup
imagerc.irc
…Data\Campaign\Art\tacref
IMAGEIDS.ID
IMAGERC.IRCI was going to play around with F4Browse which looks at the falcon4.fed file (so that is also a file that may need massaging) but it couldn’t map the KoreaObj.lod file. The version I got was F4Browse_v2.31 and I am guessing it’s a completely dead vesrion.
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Okay there is another thread working on adding custom units using the BMS Editor and I think it will solve everything but our icon association issue. I’ll be testing it tomorrow.
Here are the posts to look at:
You can modify a battalion without adding an entry, but it will modify all of that specific type–to leave the old one in place and have a modified one you will have to add it to the database. He confirms though that it is teunits.lst that needs to be changed.
Using that, you can follow his steps to create a new battalion in the DB. The trick will be to see if the icons Dee-Jay mentioned are already installed and finding a way to map to them. If they are it shouldn’t be terribly hard. If they aren’t, you will have to create your own.
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You can modify a battalion without adding an entry, but it will modify all of that specific type–to leave the old one in place and have a modified one you will have to add it to the database. He confirms though that it is teunits.lst that needs to be changed.
Using that, you can follow his steps to create a new battalion in the DB. The trick will be to see if the icons Dee-Jay mentioned are already installed and finding a way to map to them. If they are it shouldn’t be terribly hard. If they aren’t, you will have to create your own.
Thanks for all the help @MorteSil et al. I am going to work today on duplicating battalions and getting them recognized in game. Crossing my fingers now.
But then I will be stuck as I don’t know how to access or modify the image galleries. Can you recommend a thread or guide to look at? The only one that pops into my head is the “add your squadron patch” thread (which I haven’t tinkered with) which might have a couple of bits of information I need but I suspect it won’t be answering most of the questions I have or will have.
I know how to use GIMP and Inkscape to create my own icons (I’d just copy what @Dee-Jay did because that was a pretty elegant solution IMO). I just will need to know the graphic format, size, settings, etc. It’s putting the images in the library and linking that image to DB that will be the problem.
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Okay I got it to work. IIRC:
1. Open BMS Editor (from the Launcher);
2. Select [UNIT] tab;
3. Right click on the unit you want to duplicate;
4. Select [Add Unity Copy] from the context menu (it’s the only choice);
5. When asked “Duplicate associated CT also?” select [Yes];
6. Select [Class Table] tab and scroll down to the bottom and double-click on the new “#” entry;
7. Take note of the SUBTYPE number (i.e. 3 Armor);
8. Change the Specific to a number that is not being used for that Subtype (I first tried 11 and 12 but those were already in teunits.lst so I went to 99);
9. Select the Data: [Open] button to bring up the unit so you can change the name, unit icon number, and whatever else you want for your custom battalion and select the save button;
10. In your campaign folder open up teunits.lst and add the (1) side number, (2) sub type, and (3) specific to the bottom of the list (I am not sure the side numbers in teunits.lst is accurate in Balkans because it lists DPRK etc. so I added it to both “sides” with the biggest unit list in the TE:D). This seemed necessary to do for TE but I don’t think it’s necessary for use with Mission Commander.Note: there could be other was to get this to work.
Anyway, so I went to the next step and checked Russian armor and NATO armor for Balkans and they both use 10010 for the icon number. I am not sure what exactly that means bc it could be “use 10010 for the side it’s on” and then the sides all have colored icons (i.e. blue for U.S., red for DPRK). So there could be a 10010 icon for each side and each side’s icons are manually colored different or there is only one 10010 icon for all sides and it the background is colored different depending on which side is being depicted.
Either way, I don’t know how to look at the resource files and find the icons and take a look see if I can find Dee-Jay’s and just reference them and if not how to add icons to the resource files. So that’s where I need help now.
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Search for F4ResTool by Khronik - best option I know for packing and unpacking the resource files.
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Okay I found another piece of the puzzle using F4ResTool as suggested by @Malc. The icons appear to be in and-or referenced in the \Data\Art\Resource xxxyyyy.rsc .irc .idx files where xxx is “blu” “red” “brn” “grn” “gry” “orn” “wht” “ylw” (colors) and yyyy is either “lite” or “dark”. They are .tga files and some colors (at least blu) are not as they appear in game so maybe some code that processes these icons to display the correct color BUT the xxxLITE files appear to be the ones with the white border! So blulite.* could be the player controlled icons (possibly). But this is may only apply for Korea. I don’t see them in Balkans (but of course Balkans may just be using the Korea resources when it comes to map icons).
Anyway, I think the last part of the puzzle is figuring out how to point the CT to the icons in the xxxLITE file? I don’t know if I have the right version of F4Browse, but I get the “Can’t map file KoreaObj.lod” when trying to open Falcon4.fed. The version I have is 2.31. I don’t know what other tool to use to check the *.idx and other files. Any help much appreciated.