AWACs technical question
-
Curiosity for anyone who might know the answer.
In BMS you can call for declares to determine friend or foe. Many times they AWACS knows the aircraft type. My question is how does it do this.
So far I know that AWACS could track planes from their bases, and therefore know who is who based on point of origin. But what does it do when it doesnt have this information IRL? Also how does it know exactly what kind of plane its looking at? I am most interested in this for the older blocks of F-16 that didnt have full IFF systems? I would assume the older F-16s still have a transponder for IFF even if they dont have an interrogator? So is the AWACS doing the interrogation for them?
-
I’m not in the know (read: I’m just making a calculated guess here), but I think they could use a combination of:
- known intel on which aircraft the enemy has / uses, and where they are based
- point of origin
- radar cross signature
- performance (e.g. speed, altitude, rate of climb / descent etc.)
- passive sensors picking up radio signals
- NCTR
- Others?
-
I heard that the intake LP fan can be used as an ID when bouncing the radar off of it.
-
I don’t know in real what is the accuracy of their recognition, but it’s very high to tell friendly or foe.
They must know friendlies , so anything else is considered an enemy.
Falcon wise the code knows all thus awacs do.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
-
I heard that the intake LP fan can be used as an ID when bouncing the radar off of it.
It’s NCTR. Implemented in current BMS.
-
They must know friendlies , so anything else is considered an enemy.
That seems a bit blunt.
What if a jet has IFF issues, and L16/MIDS issues?
By my knowledge they never work in terms of “all that’s not friendly is enemy”. That’s why they invented terms like bogey, outlaw etc. It takes several prerequisites to be declared hostile. -
That seems a bit blunt.
What if a jet has IFF issues, and L16/MIDS issues?.Radio, wingman, …
By my knowledge they never work in terms of “all that’s not friendly is enemy”. That’s why they invented terms like bogey, outlaw etc. It takes several prerequisites to be declared hostile.
Depends on theater ROEs
-
Real recognition ain’t like falcon where the code knows all.
They don’t know all.
Thus there is Link16 and IFF.
But still are systems that can always fail. And as DJ said the wingman will inform. I don’t know if via link 16 and a failed iff can use wingman’s resources to pass the info.
And what if the enemy launches a new airplane for the very first time?
AWACS although good to have ain’t the God’s eye.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
-
Agree Dee-Jay and Arty on the last post.
Just saying that the part of the earlier post saying “so anything else is considered an enemy” is a bit blunt. Not everything ‘no friendly’ is automatically considered enemy. -
Well ok is considered as unidentified ( lol UFO) but monitored closely as it might turn out to be a hostile. Also maybe intercept it to identify it.
In war conditions I wouldn’t be surprised if orders exist to take down everything unidentified.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
-
They have an entire matrix to traverse which takes into account several factors, including:
Squawk (Or lack thereof)
Origin of flight
Mode 2/4
Flight profile
Passive ID sensors (A form of NCTR but nothing like whats in BMS or most fighters)
Intel
Cooperative targeting information from other aircraft/ground stationsThere are certain procedures in place to identify yourself as an aircraft with malfunctioning equipment. Would be extremely rare for the ROE to allow explicit declare of hostile based solely on “lack of friendly”, a lesson learned when an F15 engaged a friendly helo a few years back at the direction of AWACS…
EDIT: It should be noted that identifying the type of an aircraft is not the primary role of an AWACS. Target recognition information is almost always acquired from another source, generally the aviation and ground assets who DO perform this function as a primary mission role.
-
There was a story of an F-16 pilot during the first Iraq war. He was in a Barcap and AWACS declared hostile a contact coming out low and fast from Baghdad. It was night but he knew that sometimes AWACS gives indication not really reliable.
He decided to perform a Visual Identification and he discovered it was a couple of Tornado from Saudi Arabia returning to base after a low attack over a target in Baghdad.
It looks AWACS is not perfect. There are mistakes
-
When there is human factor always there is room for the error.
sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
-
When there is human factor always there is room for the error.
sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
Again I am no expert, but there is a very good reason why in real air campaigns pilots are given specific routs to fly to and from the FLOT, and why there are areas designated as kill boxes with specific ROE.