What's the point?
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How exactly does a Cougar throttle die? Are there no replacement switches for it? I’m guessing the microstick and the PCB internals are custom and if/when they die, bye-bye throttle?
Any of those parts.
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I have three Cougar TQSs…there’s really nothing special about the TQS PCB - I’ve modded one with a Bodner board for use with the Mac version of FAF, I have a RealSim TUSBA R2 on another (which would probably also work on a Mac), and once that I plan to cannibalize to build into my cockpit project. I’ll probably also buy spares as I find them, but I’ll probably never buy another Cougar stick unless I just plain want to cannibalize it’s electronics.
I’ve also replaced the ANT EL pot on my TQS with the Bodner board, and will do the same with my other two, as I get around to them.
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Any one with some basic engineering skills, the time and passion can keep the Cougar throttle running.
But it does cost a few dollars and time.
Lets just take a moment to pray or beseech God as you perceive or understand Him (or other/no gender) for ThrustMaster to reproduce the F-16 throttle.
If your a atheist just cross your fingers &/or keep sending request emails to ThrustMaster. (And may God have mercy on your soul) :munch:
I do have a question, is that throttle or similar used in any other relevant AirFrames ??
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Well @ ICE
Allow me to add few observations of the past.
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IF one really insists! to have a non moving FCC stick, because that is how the real F16 operates… then there is no option other than using a FCC.
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IF one plays other sims aswell, like Warthunder, IL-2, CLoD TF, DCS (with different planes and choppers) … AND BMS, it makes sense to a have good moving stick (not many good ones out there! )
The main differences i noticed in the past are:
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WW2 prop planes and choppers with non-moving sticks… meh… not so much fun
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As i was flying aerobatics and formation airshows in the past (VFAT) … and as we (the aerobatics community) knew eachother and talked alot about sticks too, NOONE used a FFC for this kind of flying, because just too unprecise and not suited for this kind of flying.
But wait a moment! Aren´t the Thunderbirds in real flying aerobatics with the real 16 and FCC ? YES, buuuut, what many do not know… their jets and control-interfaces (FBW) are “a little adjusted”. Besides aerobatic formation real and sim… is totally different i have been told.
There was a good post somewhere in the past about that… can not find it anymore.
One of the best aerobatics (and formation) pilots of VFAT out there (and a good friend - Frazer) bought a even Warthog and tested it for this kind of flying… there was a huge thread about it and with analysis and his conclusions.
Buttom line… he put it back into the box, because not useable for this kind of flying. Reason being, not smooth enough and friction on minute counter-adjustments * see video in next post
Combat pilots will not be aware so much of these minute but crucial differences.
So, if BMS is your only baby … get a FSSB 2 or 3, and if combat flying is the only thing you do… you will be very fine with it.
If you want a cross-plattform stick, well then one needs to look for alternatives or special mods.
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This makes totally sense to me … good video.
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Thanks for the answers guys. I’ve owned three Cougars and have always, ALWAYS had issues with the TQS…. if not the mini stick, then the rotaries. Always the rotaries. If someone makes a more reliable TQS, I’d be sold. I’ve always been wanting to make a realistic throttle mod, the one with the IDLE gate and the lift-to-AB, but the reliability of the throttle innards makes me balk at the project.
A.S., I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that I’m talking about force-sensing sticks here. I only referred to “non-F16” sticks in relation to their button/hat layout; you will notice I still talked about gimbals and therefore non-force sensing. Regardless, thanks for your info regarding VFAT. I do agree with you 100% that for other sims, stick requirements will be different… heck, I used to fly Black Shark 2 and everybody was harping about force feedback sticks being ideal for that sim… but as mentioned in another thread, having a cross-platform stick may also not be the best solution.
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I was just generally speaking. (moving vs non-moving)
one with the IDLE gate and the lift-to-AB
was thinking about that too….
if not the mini stick, then the rotaries
20-50 cents “Radio Shack” -ish potis used = they get dirty due to “scratching contact” and loose precision.
having a cross-platform stick may also not be the best solution.
You and i may not bother about spending 1000$ plus just for the input devices… but most people can not or don´t want to “geek out” like we do
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one with the IDLE gate and the lift-to-AB
i think this one does do that
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Looks very interesting. Can it be combined with the Hotas Cougar stick?
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@A.S:
20-50 cents “Radio Shack” -ish potis used = they get dirty due to “scratching contact” and loose precision.
And what is the quality replacement?
@A.S:
You and i may not bother about spending 1000$ plus just for the input devices… but most people can not or don´t want to “geek out” like we do
I suspect a cross-platform stick may be too rich even for those that “geek out.” Some of us have to submit acquisition requests to the Chief Finance Officer
@A.S:
i think this one does do that
I think you better stop posting “solutions” that aren’t really solutions. I’m betting for the price of that one, I could pay someone to build me a modded throttle…. and then make 5 more just like it.
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I think you better stop posting “solutions” that aren’t really solutions. I’m betting for the price of that one, I could pay someone to build me a modded throttle…. and then make 5 more just like it.
There is a mod out there… or you tinker a little yourself.
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@A.S:
There is a mod out there… or you tinker a little yourself.
Is that a user-made mod? Most of what I’ve seen were pitbuilder solutions from VP. So, are there quality replacement electronics for inside the TQS? One of the main reasons I didn’t take the plunge was because I didn’t want to be tinkering to make that mod, only to have the TQS innards crap out on me every 2 weeks.
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@A.S:
http://i.imgur.com/VgafcrP.jpg
There is a mod out there… or you tinker a little yourself.
Tris one look interesting. Can you vive more info?
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only to have the TQS innards crap out on me every 2 weeks.
urban legend
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Is that a user-made mod?
I believe so. You might want to try a picture uplaod-comparision search on google in order to find other sources.
So, are there quality replacement electronics for inside the TQS? One of the main reasons I didn’t take the plunge was because I didn’t want to be tinkering to make that mod, only to have the TQS innards crap out on me every 2 weeks.
Sorry for asking so naively. What is meant by TQS? (Throttle Quadrant System) …what switch(es) / sensor(s) / potentiometer in particular are(is) your problem?
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@Red:
urban legend
Exaggeration-to-prove-a-point, RD. All my Cougars I’ve had to open up to fix something on the throttle. My TM WH just worked from day 1.
@A.S:
I believe so. You might want to try a picture uplaod-comparision search on google in order to find other sources.
I could…. but all I could do is ogle for now. I don’t have the time/money/skills for something like this at the moment…
@A.S:
Sorry for asking so naively. What is meant by TQS? (Throttle Quadrant System) …what switch(es) / sensor(s) / potentiometer in particular are(is) your problem?
Yep, some people refer to the throttle as TQS and the stick as SSC…. my issues have always been the rotaries and with one TQS, the ministick too.
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Hotas Cougar . . rotaries and the ministick use conventional oldschool contact- and resistance-area changing potentiometers. That stuff is “flintstones age old” for 2017 standards, but most still use them, because cheap! and simple.
Those potis get due to contact (scratching and dust and humidity) dirty over time and change the electrical resistance (also known as “spiking output”). There are way better solutions nowadays (no, dont ask what for now).
The micro-switch in picture (same “low quality pieces” used in saitek btw.) uses a “copper-dome”… pressed down it creates an electrical contact, but over time those “pre-bent copper-plates” just get squeezed out.
You will notice that in loss of “click sound” over time. Also better solutions available (no, dont ask what for now).
Even some desktop mouses use much better “micro-switches” with much longer endurance time and click-count.These are few of many things i meant in our previous “not so well going” thread. You buy a 300-400$ stick… and get 5-10 cents electric parts built in them. Pffff
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A digital TQS Mark-II is what Ive been asking Thrustmaster about for a long time. Even asked the FCC developer about it. Id pay the same as a FCC/FSSB for it.
I like the idea of making the TQS rotataries smoother and more 12 or 16-bit with a Bodinar A-D interface board. The TUSBA-R2 and its software does about the same thing, i would think. Neither however, fix the analog wiper and axial damage that happens over time
Until then, i like Stevie (and Ice?) have been squirreling away a backup cache of fully functional Cougar sets. I know how to fix most of the common problems with the TQS, plus I have modded mine for use with BMS with hall sensor Z-axis and TUSBA-R2. I wont fly BMS with anything but a FCC SSC and modded TQS. Immersion and cool factor.
I dont fly virtual formation team levels anymore (did a long while back with VBA Rhino and VTB Panther when i had more time), but for the close formation we do in BMS combat flying and AAR, force mods do very well. Virtual form flying does require tricks (as AS suggested real ones do too); like neg trim and small amounts of flaps, tuned stick gain, and sometimes FM tweaks, hardware mods, etc.
I personally would like RD to go into detail on what he did using real Viper controls in his pit.
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Cougar has issue no question, but except for one, all issues have known solutions.
It’s up to the users to stop being bothered by the original issues.1. pots are wearing out because of friction and hall sensors don’t
tqs uses pots for RNG, ANT, throttle and MIX and MIY.My experience:
I had the first ever cougar produced. I presented it to the public and i kept it after the show. It’s still the one i use today in my pit.
it’s been 17-18 years. Over these years i replaced the pot in the throttle once. Only once, after 6 years of loyal service.
after 10 years of service i switched to hall sensors.
that’s far from the every two weeks Ice mentionned, but i get your exageration argument Ice.reason why i hardly had to replace my pot: i always store my throttle full AB, end of the course and never idle. that was one main factor that made a throttle pot last longer or not.
i knew the reason why before, actually the creator of the FCC came up with the reason being electrical and the pot getting surges ramdomly only at the idle position if I remember right
problem, it was a hardly known facts, although advertised as often as possible.reason why i switched to hall sensors: because friction inevitably is a bad thing that will lead to problems.
the Hall sensor was the clear path to a placid flight simmer life. In my pit, the throttle is driven with a simple hall sensor, and it’s been there since 2007-2008 something. never had to change it, reset it, recalbrate it.2. Cougar is 17 years old. in that time no one ever produced a replacement for the microstick. No one ever. and now A.S said there is ? ttttt
Lately i saw raptor saying he found a solution. He might certainly - he’s not the kind of guy talking bs - but that won’t change the fact that it was never made better by anyone for 17 years…
today parts are better than 17 years ago. Ultimately a solution will be available, but the number of cougar decrease, and it will be harder and hgarder to produce and distribute that solution. time won’t help.3. Tusba is said to make the throttle better. I can’t tell as i never tried. but the questions i asked ppl who have and use tusba didn’t convinced me. I believe the added resolution is just a marketting argument. The only reason i would get a tusba is if i want to get the throttle standalone. it doesn’t fix any of the throttle issue, it doesn’t make it better (personal opinion)
I personally would like RD to go into detail on what he did using real Viper controls in his pit.
at this time:
stick is FCC3 into Martin’s stickbase with a warthog grip. stick adaptor cast tilted foward
throttle is regular Cougar, hall sensor kit mounted and adapted to a real F-16 throttle rail. homemade cutoff lever adapter piece
Rudder is Realsimulator
All connected together to the Cougar stick, using cougar electronics and software (ccp & foxy)My only caveat is the radar cursors which i stopped using and programmed cursors instead on the shifted layer of the radioswitch.
Never was able to solve the microstick issue myself. been using that way for decadesAlthough i do have plans to try a real cursor sensor soon (as in 3-4 weeks) when i have enough mojo to work on the pit again
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Thanks RD for the reponses, i dont know where/when, but i was under the impression that you were using a real Viper TQS adapted to your 1:1 pit. I am very interested in your replacing the Cougar’s analog pot rotaries with what, the real TQS HS ones? Please make a thread on that project.
While on the the topic of your pit, as a nerdy sparky engineer myself, id like to see the behinds scenes of your pit. That is to say, what the pcbs and cabling looks like. I sense youre a perfectionist (sorry bout the labelling), so im sure its neat and tidy (but never enough for you?). Its not braggadocious about sharing such a work of functional art. Please do.
As far as the TQS TUSBA-R2 goes, it brings up the resolution from 8 to 14 bits (12-bit for the R1). For most flying, having 256 versus 16,384 steps of resolution or fidelity isnt going to magically make a well throttle disciplined Ace pilot even better; but it can help a poor or average pilot who is less disciplined better with smoother controls. Having to pay for AVGAS in RL GA tends to make one more throttle disciplined, yes?
Plus the TUSBA-R2 and its software have filtering, dead zone, active zone area definition that assist with dealing with aging pots and cursors - more so than what the BMS Control GUI provides. It worth its price there alone IMHO.
I am using my second TQS with the HS (Miles) z-axis throttle pot, my own brake and rotary fixes, (my original TQS is in a box for history sakes, but is nearly mint condition). If not man handled, they will last a long time. Ive always used a dust cover which by its design, forced me to store the TQS handle in the forward position; so this along with your assertion on storing in AB may have some impact as to the longevity of my TQS. I believe the issue is not damaging the pot at either of its mechanical end points. This goes back to how kenetic vs surgical controller use (abuse?) affects hardware lifespan. This is yet another plus in the FCC camp for stick life imho… no moving parts to be banged around in adrenaline powered combat.
Speaking of impact, as one that has bought many a secondhand TQS online; i have found that most will have spikey or non functional rotaries. This is due in part because either the previous owner did not protect them from impact while in use or in improper shipping. The Range pot is the most susceptible device on the TQS to impact trauma (and the plastic lever too). Because of the axial rod on the two rotaries, any mild or greater force on the rotary’s knob will result in a pile-driver like damage on the pot’s wiper and external can. These can be either replaced or repaired if you know what youre doing. When I buy or ship a TQS, im very anal and specific on protecting the rotaries and blocking up the tqs handle to base. This is why TM shipped them so well in lots of styrofoam. I personally prefer buying from someone who has the orig packaging. It may cost another $50 in value and shipping, but well worth the hassle factor. Ive seen what happens when people are not aware of these vulnerabilities