Warthog Joystick vs Real F16 Joystick
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I get key collisions all the time, even without TARGET. The most notable one is when I’m trying to close the speed brakes and also use the toe brakes at the same time while rolling out down the runway…the hook can start cycling up/down like mad. I’ve learned to simply not move the speed brake knob with my feet on the brakes, but still…it’s an issue I need to solve when I get to wiring/configuring my cockpit, and I’m sure I’ll find others.
On my Mac I can cure this sort of thing using a utility called ControllerMate and setting watchdog timers…may find I’ll need to do something similar in my pit, but probably in hardware. Time will tell.
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I get key collisions all the time, even without TARGET. The most notable one is when I’m trying to close the speed brakes and also use the toe brakes at the same time while rolling out down the runway…the hook can start cycling up/down like mad. I’ve learned to simply not move the speed brake knob with my feet on the brakes, but still…it’s an issue I need to solve when I get to wiring/configuring my cockpit, and I’m sure I’ll find others.
Ah well since I have Saitek Combat Rudder pedals my braking action isn’t a keyboard input but an analog axis input to both left and right brakes so that would explain why I never see that problem.
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Ah well since I have Saitek Combat Rudder pedals my braking action isn’t a keyboard input but an analog axis input to both left and right brakes so that would explain why I never see that problem.
Same on my setup - I have Saitek Combat rudder pedals, and I get key collisions as described previously. Though in my Mac setup (for FAF Mac) I have proportional toe brakes set up using the toe action to control the repeat rate of the key for brakes. Which actually works very well, other than the key collision.
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Same on my setup - I have Saitek Combat rudder pedals, and I get key collisions as described previously. Though in my Mac setup (for FAF Mac) I have proportional toe brakes set up using the toe action to control the repeat rate of the key for brakes. Which actually works very well, other than the key collision.
Um there shouldn’t be any key inputs then if you have a physical analog axis to do the brakes with. No reason at all that they should ever be sending back a keyboard input.
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Um there shouldn’t be any key inputs then if you have a physical analog axis to do the brakes with. No reason at all that they should ever be sending back a keyboard input.
That’s part of the issue with FAF Mac - there is no analog input for the brakes, so I’ve had to fake one using analog control of the key rate. So I can get collisions…but I can also bridge around them. I have yet to find any with BMS, but I’m about certain I will at some point. Other folk setting up cockpits do/have - usually turns out to be wiring/ground loop related.
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That’s part of the issue with FAF Mac - there is no analog input for the brakes, so I’ve had to fake one using analog control of the key rate. So I can get collisions…
Eww that would be annoying. Nice to hear you can work around it though.
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I SERIOUSLY wish I there was a version of this utility for the PC -
http://www.orderedbytes.com/controllermate/
Blows TARGET, etc. right off of the planet. Would solve an ordnance load of problems for me as a cockpit builder!
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The only post of one of Arend’s mods breaking I’ve ever seen was a picture from a sim event where one somehow got ripped off of an FCC base…and that might have been a joke.
I use max force settings FSSB and my tailpiece broke right off in my hands…no joke. The tailpiece is made of cheap white metal and is not made for such forces. I now have a 3D printer stainless steel one. There is also a cast bronze option for this very reason.
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I SERIOUSLY wish I there was a version of this utility for the PC -
http://www.orderedbytes.com/controllermate/
Blows TARGET, etc. right off of the planet. Would solve an ordnance load of problems for me as a cockpit builder!
There’s Universal Control Remapper
http://evilc.com/2017/05/01/ucr/Or Joystick Gremlin
http://whitemagic.github.io/JoystickGremlin/ -
I love my Warthog Hotas but have an unusual problem. The real F16 has a force sensing flight stick which only moves 1/4 of an inch. How can I set this up on the Warthog? I doubt there is a hardware solution but maybe tweak the control limits in Target so that I get full deflection with little pull on the stick. Have any of you simulated this on your Warthog?
Thank you!
I’ve never flown with a force sensitive stick, but I suspect it would simulate a long travel instead of a short travel traditional stick, because of the force range you can apply to it. In a traditional stick, you’re limited by the range of motion - the bigger, the better, because it allows more precision. On a force stick, you’re limited by the range of force, and I suspect this range is greater, allowing more precision than a traditional stick. I could be wrong though… this is something that sparks my curiosity, if someone has some knowledge on this, please step in.
But, despite all that, if you simply change the limit in TARGET in order to get full deflection with a small stick movement, you’ll be seriously hindered in terms of accuracy and will much probably be moving away, instead of closer to the real jet control.
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There’s Universal Control Remapper
http://evilc.com/2017/05/01/ucr/Or Joystick Gremlin
http://whitemagic.github.io/JoystickGremlin/Bookmarked, but still very limited in comparison to what can be done with ControllerMate - with ControllerMate I can re-taylor/calibrate axis curves, and do layered/shift programming for buttons…like my ability to control the key for brakes with my analog Saitek pedals - proportional throw gets me a variable rate of key press.
I also use it to get the WH CMS->dwn to toggle my hat between trim and POV modes…double CMS->dwn invokes Trim, hold CMS->dwn for > .5 sec and I go back to POV. I’ve also set up delays in the CMS switch to stop me from inadvertently dispensing chaff or flare, double tap of my NWS button nulls Trim, etc. I also use it to set a quadrature routine which totally kills the drift on my cursor control…I converted a Cougar TQS using a Bodner board, and use ControllerMate to use it with my Mac version of FAF. ControllerMate rocks!!!
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I’ve never flown with a force sensitive stick, but I suspect it would simulate a long travel instead of a short travel traditional stick, because of the force range you can apply to it. In a traditional stick, you’re limited by the range of motion - the bigger, the better, because it allows more precision. On a force stick, you’re limited by the range of force, and I suspect this range is greater, allowing more precision than a traditional stick. I could be wrong though… this is something that sparks my curiosity, if someone has some knowledge on this, please step in.
But, despite all that, if you simply change the limit in TARGET in order to get full deflection with a small stick movement, you’ll be seriously hindered in terms of accuracy and will much probably be moving away, instead of closer to the real jet control.
I have an FCC3 converted Cougar - the real F-16 stick only moves about 1/8 of an inch…and is proportional to full input at a 25 lbf pull. The FCC3 simulates this very nicely - I thought I would over-control this setup, but I absolutely LOVE it.
Something I do with my HOTAS Warthog is to over-calibrate it to simulate this…i.e.; I cal it to max range at very short throws. This makes the stick ultra sensitive, but the training does seem to transfer to using the FCC3 setup. If you find yourself pulling to the full range, any input outside of the short-cal get ignored…so you end up flying with pressure on the stick. This only works because the WH stick has such stiff throws.
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I have an FCC3 converted Cougar - I have an FCC3 converted Cougar - the real F-16 stick only moves about 1/8 of an inch…and is proportional to full input at a 25 lbf pull. The FCC3 simulates this very nicely - I thought I would over-control this setup, but I absolutely LOVE it.
What I’m trying to say is, although the force stick only moves 1/8 of an inch, the movement is not what makes the aircraft respond, it’s only the force you apply, I suppose.
So, on a force stick you get an input range of 0 - 25 lbf to control the full range of the aircraft’s aileron, for example. In a conventional stick you get an input range of what, 0 - 3 inches to control this same range of aileron motion. I suspect a range of 0 - 25 lbf would be a ‘wider range of input’ than 0 - 3 inches (I know I can’t compare lbf to inch, but still), offering you more control. Like comparing a traditional type stick with a range of motion of 6 inches to another with a range of 3 inches to control the same aileron movement. The 6 inches range just offers more precision.
Same reason why some people put extensions on their Warthog stick.
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What I’m trying to say is, although the force stick only moves 1/8 of an inch, the movement is not what makes the aircraft respond, it’s only the force you apply, I suppose.
So, on a force stick you get an input range of 0 - 25 lbf to control the full range of the aircraft’s aileron, for example. In a conventional stick you get an input range of what, 0 - 3 inches to control this same range of aileron motion. I suspect a range of 0 - 25 lbf would be a ‘wider range of input’ than 0 - 3 inches (I know I can’t compare lbf to inch, but still), offering you more control. Like comparing a traditional type stick with a range of motion of 6 inches to another with a range of 3 inches to control the same aileron movement. The 6 inches range just offers more precision.
Same reason why some people put extensions on their Warthog stick.
Yes, you are correct in the first…but in the second the real answer is more “it depends”. What it depends on is a combination of the input gains of the particular aircraft’s control system, how the stick force per G is implemented to provide dynamic feel, and if the jet is fly-by-wire…well…all bets are off.
We tend to fly with incredibly light sticks, as a community…every time I fly a RL trainer I get reminded of this. Even the HOTAS WH (as stiff as it is…) is an incredibly light stick in comparison to RL center sticks, and if you put an extension on it, it only gets lighter because of the greater leverage. One of the things I’ll be going for in my cockpit build is to get the control forces as close to RL as I can - so my FCC WH setup will be set up for 25 lbf for full input, and I’ll have to do some research on just how the rudders are. I have a real F-16 throttle arm/friction/mounting plate assembly…which is very smooth - way smoother than either of the WH or Cougar throttles. I’m really looking forward to using it in situ.
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Happened to read this the other day…
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13425&p=167026&hilit=rudder+pedals&sid=ea5298b6e656ad67b7c4b8f17348fa21#p167026
Hope its ok to post the link
From a thread on what info you’re looking for. That’s one heck of a workout
Dave -
Happened to read this the other day…
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13425&p=167026&hilit=rudder+pedals&sid=ea5298b6e656ad67b7c4b8f17348fa21#p167026
Hope its ok to post the link
From a thread on what info you’re looking for. That’s one heck of a workout
DaveGood read thanks. I need to learn to use the rudder more, as I tend to really only use it on taxiing and TO.
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Good read thanks. I need to learn to use the rudder more, as I tend to really only use it on taxiing and TO.
Was not intended this way?
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We tend to fly with incredibly light sticks, as a community……One of the things I’ll be going for in my cockpit build is to get the control forces as close to RL as I can - so my FCC WH setup will be set up for 25 lbf for full input, and I’ll have to do some research on just how the rudders are.
I really like the 21 lbs with BMS. I have zero curves and only a tiny deadzone, so it doesn’t give inputs with the weight of my hand. I believe this is the way BMS intended HOTAS to be used, no curves etc. for max realism.
Prepare to possibly replace your stock tailpiece with a better one (calibrating to the extremes is very tough on it). I broke two stock tailpieces before I got my angled stainless steel one. It is not a workout with 21lbs if you have your stick positioned near your thighs. I would not do this if it is on a desktop and you are holding your arms up high around your shoulders. That is probably why many are using software to adjust the feel and using lower lbs. The stick should be positioned lower. I had more strain when mine was on a desktop with no FSSB than with 21 lbs at my thighs. Just my 2 cents.
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Happened to read this the other day…
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13425&p=167026&hilit=rudder+pedals&sid=ea5298b6e656ad67b7c4b8f17348fa21#p167026
Hope its ok to post the link
From a thread on what info you’re looking for. That’s one heck of a workout
DaveYes. When I spend an hour or two in a RL trainer I’m tired when I get out. That’s what I want!
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I really like the 21 lbs with BMS. I have zero curves and only a tiny deadzone, so it doesn’t give inputs with the weight of my hand. I believe this is the way BMS intended HOTAS to be used, no curves etc. for max realism.
Prepare to possibly replace your stock tailpiece with a better one (calibrating to the extremes is very tough on it). I broke two stock tailpieces before I got my angled stainless steel one. It is not a workout with 21lbs if you have your stick positioned near your thighs. I would not do this if it is on a desktop and you are holding your arms up high around your shoulders. That is probably why many are using software to adjust the feel and using lower lbs. The stick should be positioned lower. I had more strain when mine was on a desktop with no FSSB than with 21 lbs at my thighs. Just my 2 cents.
Already done, as I have a bronze replacement with the proper 13 degree forward slant in it - it’s also a must-do for a cockpit setup (I’m building a full cockpit). There are couple of these out there…there’s a 3D printed metal one that I may want to try as well; it could be a better fit but may or may not be as durable, though.