Why not make an in depth Tutorial for the simulator ?
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Am I the only one who sees an issue that someone out there has found this sim, shown interest, asked for help, made a rather valid suggestion (Because a lot of people have agreed with or championed the idea), and then the thread has turned into people telling him to go fly another sim because this one is too hard for him? That’s not a good way to build a community. The sim is hard to learn, nobody argues that. But it is by no means impossible to learn without flying some other sim first. In fact it’s not even that hard to learn without flying something else first, as long you understand it takes time. There is so much negativity in this thread it’s ridiculous.
Yes, it takes time to learn this sim. No, you will not be an ACE in the skies before the New Year. However, it will NOT take you 2 years to be able to fly effectively if you put in a little effort. Yes, it is very helpful to read the manuals first. No, it is not REQUIRED to do so. Many people, myself included, learned the sim with very little reading in the manuals except when I wanted to look something up. Do NOT go fly another sim expecting to come back here and have an easier time… few if any can offer any kind of comparable depth or complexity in simple tasks such as engine start. If you are unfamiliar with flight dynamics or sims, it might be helpful for the first few times to fly without the advanced flight model–Which I think would be a good idea for a training jet. An F-16 with no AFM, for complete beginners, just to get the concept of engine start, taxi, and takeoff. A simple disclaimer in the Training Manual that states as much would be sufficient to ensure the student knows it will get harder going forward.
@OP:
Read the section on engine start. Twice. Then follow it in the sim to get the aircraft started. Taxi…Takeoff…fly around for a bit…attempt to land. Do that 3 or 4 times and you will be 50% of the way into your training, and gain all the experience you could hope to gather from flying around in another sim. From there, follow the training manuals and missions. When they are done, start a campaign and have fun learning the intricacies of everything else. That’s really all you need. There will be things you don’t understand. Search for them in the manuals. There will still be things you don’t understand…search the forums. There will STILL be things you don’t understand…ask questions in the forums. Even then… there will be things you don’t understand…experiment in the airplane. -
There is so much negativity in this thread it’s ridiculous
I see 13 pages of recurring complaining rather than learning.
Supportive versus spoon-feeding.
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I disagree. He said repeatedly he didn’t want to give up on the sim. He just needs a little help getting started. Which is understandable for people who’s only experience in flight sims is something like Ace Combat 7… Regardless there are better ways to be supportive than to mock someone for asking for help, calling it spoon feeding, or telling them to go fly somewhere else. That’s just my personal opinion. And it’s a recurring issue with new players, or these threads wouldn’t get 1500+ views every time one gets started, so there is obviously some validity in the complaint/request.
But that’s the kind of negativity I’m talking about. I would say it’s just as hard to learn this sim as it is for a teenager to learn to drive, just with less consequences. Nobody calls it spoon feeding when the teenager asks for driving lessons? Or expects them to go pass a test by reading a book and never getting a lesson? It’s complex with a lot of moving parts. Just because some of us have been doing it for years, doesn’t mean it isn’t still extremely confusing for new people.
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Am I the only one who sees an issue that someone out there has found this sim, shown interest, asked for help, made a rather valid suggestion (Because a lot of people have agreed with or championed the idea), and then the thread has turned into people telling him to go fly another sim because this one is too hard for him? That’s not a good way to build a community. The sim is hard to learn, nobody argues that. But it is by no means impossible to learn without flying some other sim first. In fact it’s not even that hard to learn without flying something else first, as long you understand it takes time. There is so much negativity in this thread it’s ridiculous.
Yes, it takes time to learn this sim. No, you will not be an ACE in the skies before the New Year. However, it will NOT take you 2 years to be able to fly effectively if you put in a little effort. Yes, it is very helpful to read the manuals first. No, it is not REQUIRED to do so. Many people, myself included, learned the sim with very little reading in the manuals except when I wanted to look something up. Do NOT go fly another sim expecting to come back here and have an easier time… few if any can offer any kind of comparable depth or complexity in simple tasks such as engine start. If you are unfamiliar with flight dynamics or sims, it might be helpful for the first few times to fly without the advanced flight model–Which I think would be a good idea for a training jet. An F-16 with no AFM, for complete beginners, just to get the concept of engine start, taxi, and takeoff. A simple disclaimer in the Training Manual that states as much would be sufficient to ensure the student knows it will get harder going forward.
@OP:
Read the section on engine start. Twice. Then follow it in the sim to get the aircraft started. Taxi…Takeoff…fly around for a bit…attempt to land. Do that 3 or 4 times and you will be 50% of the way into your training, and gain all the experience you could hope to gather from flying around in another sim. From there, follow the training manuals and missions. When they are done, start a campaign and have fun learning the intricacies of everything else. That’s really all you need. There will be things you don’t understand. Search for them in the manuals. There will still be things you don’t understand…search the forums. There will STILL be things you don’t understand…ask questions in the forums. Even then… there will be things you don’t understand…experiment in the airplane.I disagree - read my post just above yours #125
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Always remember too
there are a dozen complaining/whining but hundreths didn’t need any guidance and found their way on their own - these do not complain and are unheard of
we hardly see post saying nothing but ‘I just enjoy BMS’ -
@Red:
there are a dozen complaining/whining but hundreths didn’t need any guidance and found their way on their own - these do not complain and are unheard of
we hardly see post saying nothing but ‘I just enjoy BMS’Yep, BMS is self-vetting.
Not our fault if a person cant or wont read the plethura of excellent documentation.
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Oh, I thought it was a game, made for people to enjoy. I hadn’t realized it was a status symbol which required or signified exclusivity.
No offense to RD, but I think the AD guys have better docs and training… maybe the AF can save some money by eliminating training programs and instructors in lieu of simply reading the TOs and AFIs. I’ll pass the suggestion on to my boss.
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I don’t really think it’s complaining so much but the op has asked the same thing over and over and gotten many diverse answers and still continues. If he opened the manuals then came back with specific questions then it’d be different.
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Mortesil
Just out of interest - How did you learn to fly BMS
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Oh, I thought it was a game, made for people to enjoy. I hadn’t realized it was a status symbol which required or signified exclusivity.
No offense to RD, but I think the AD guys have better docs and training… maybe the AF can save some money by eliminating training programs and instructors in lieu of simply reading the TOs and AFIs. I’ll pass the suggestion on to my boss.
LMAO…you’ll go far here…I’m out.
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Oh, I thought it was a game, made for people to enjoy. I hadn’t realized it was a status symbol which required or signified exclusivity.
No offense to RD, but I think the AD guys have better docs and training… maybe the AF can save some money by eliminating training programs and instructors in lieu of simply reading the TOs and AFIs. I’ll pass the suggestion on to my boss.
the OP is a dummy running in circles.
actually flying is important to learning how to fly, but you read the books first or at least find someone to teach you in a controlled environment.
he’s done neither and is still complaining.
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Am I the only one who sees an issue that someone out there has found this sim, shown interest, asked for help, made a rather valid suggestion (Because a lot of people have agreed with or championed the idea), and then the thread has turned into people telling him to go fly another sim because this one is too hard for him?
I do believe I was the first to suggest another sim and that wasn’t until post #106 so this is just plain fake news.
However, I would like to make another suggestion. I’m new to the BMS world so maybe I missed one that already exists but how about a training squadron? Not an official VFW requiring membership but just a group of the best IPs offer training and instruction to new Falcon BMS pilots. One of the first videos I watched on youtube was essentially this, one guy walking another through a ramp start and quick flight. Here’s the video:
You could even incorporate some sort of live stream to it. Have the student stream so the instructor can watch what they are doing and talk them through it all.
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i have a lot of first hand experience teaching people BMS and let me tell you hombre it is ****ing exhausting.
you’re going to be hard up to find anyone willing to do it without giving them a salary, it requires a shitload of time and effort and often enough comes with absolutely no return because the guy will ghost on you 10 hours in because he’s not dedicated enough.
i’ve experienced it probably 20+ times and i’ve even done it once or twice to people just because the commitment is relatively insane.
grabbing random people from the community and teaching them is likely to just be a revolving door because 9/10 aren’t committed enough, are too busy, or can’t learn for whatever reason.
it’s a non-starter imo.
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i have a lot of first hand experience teaching people BMS and let me tell you hombre it is ****ing exhausting.
I second that
I trained lots over the last 15 years and today I’m all dried up. I’m very lucky to have a small team backing me up now till I can recover, if I ever doit’s a non-starter imo.
But I disagree with that. Because the 2-3 out of 25 (the ratio is important, not the numbers ) that made it to the end are today very enjoyable wingmen or flight leads and friends
and that’s pricelessHowever, I would like to make another suggestion. I’m new to the BMS world so maybe I missed one that already exists but how about a training squadron? Not an official VFW requiring membership but just a group of the best IPs offer training and instruction to new Falcon BMS pilots.
Why not an official VFW requiring membership?
They do the exact same job. There are multiples VFW, each with their own specificities. The advantage is that the newbee can choose according to what he likes
The VFW already struggle - what you suggest would be even more struggleIf the books don’t help, if the video don’t help, if motivation don’t help My take is that the VFW can’t do anything to help you. But none of the above is self exclusive with the others.
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i teach RD don’t get me wrong, and i’ve gotten some wingmen out of it (fly regularly with them etc.) but i wouldn’t teach OP just because he’s made it obvious that he has no initiative or real desire to learn because he hasn’t made even the most basic steps.
if he came to me with a specific question i would answer it even if it required some time to explain (why aren’t my mavericks hitting given these roll/pitch/yaw/range conditions…) etc.
but this isn’t a specific question this is “i am lazy, i want everything done for me. how dare you not cater to my every whim.” etc which is just dumb.
i’ll banter about the guy in the meantime because whatever.
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got it and I do the same
The way ppl behave here tells me alot when they come knocking at our door for a slot in our VFWCall it elitist or not, I call it valued ressource management
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Well I’ll get it down eventually.
Also, 2-3 out of 25 ? Ouch. If someday there’d be said newbie in sim vocal guided tutorial teaching the basics, perhaps with a trainer aircraft, or maybe just sticking to the F-16, then there may not have to be that many people giving up. I’ve forgotten how many times I said this (I said this… right?), I can’t believe I never knew BMS existed before a week ago. It needs some more publicity to say the least, popularity should be great for it.
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@Cik:
this is “i am lazy, i want everything done for me. how dare you not cater to my every whim.”
Dont know the age of the OP but this attitude is a chronic problem with the current generation.
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Mortesil
Just out of interest - How did you learn to fly BMS
I had a little experience, so my case is not the best metric to use, but the answer is I sat down and started playing. I’m not saying DON’T read the manuals. I’m simply saying it’s possible to enjoy the game and learn as you go without spending a week (or more) up front reading 1500 pages. And I PERSONALLY feel, it’s quite possible to enjoy the sim AS A GAME, without mastering the universe of Falcon first. Not everyone wants to be as near and close to the real deal as they can get right up front on day 1. Sometimes people just want to get in and go fly and shoot at something. And we shouldn’t be telling new players that they “CAN’T” do that, just because that isn’t the true intent of the game as a study sim. Because you can. You absolutely can. And it’s really not very hard to do so, with 5-6 sentences of guidance. We, as a community, should encourage those interested by giving them those 5-6 sentences, and hoping they catch the bug. Not calling them lazy or inadequate because they didn’t choose to learn the game the same way someone else did. In the end, it’s still a game. And while it may be complex, it’s not putting a man on Mars… Who are you or I or anyone else for that matter to tell someone up front HOW they should play a game, or why they WON’T enjoy a game for doing it differently? We don’t know them, what they like, what they don’t like, how immersive they want to get… enjoyment is a matter of perspective.
VFWs and individual instruction is a totally different story. You have every right to be selective or even harsh when it comes to something you have a personal vested interest in. Nobody is making negative comments about your refusal to invest that time in someone else who may have a different level of commitment than you do. But, that door goes both ways. Shouldn’t the community respect the OPs right to choose how they want to spend THEIR time? If nobody wants to answer their questions that’s fine, but discouraging them from continuing to learn the game based on your lack of desire to teach them is no different than me saying you’re lazy for not going out of your way to teach every new guy in the forums. You learn and teach how you want, spend your time how you want, and they do the same. But in the time it takes to write a snarky comment, defend that comment, or tell someone they will fail because they don’t read enough in the docs folder the question could have been answered 2x over. Just in general, the feeling is seldom supportive or hand-holding, let alone encouraging. There are a dozen comments in this thread alone which basically infer if you aren’t willing to put in years of work you will never succeed, never enjoy the game, and/or should stop trying. One comment more or less says that outright. But the new guys don’t know what they don’t know. It’s hard to ask pointed questions on day 1 with no frame of reference.
All the "you"s in that paragraph are meant in the general sense, not targeted at anyone in particular.
I’ve trained my share of BMS pilots as well. And I spent 14 years as either a flight instructor or flight evaluator in the AF, so I am fully aware of how frustrating it can be to teach the same thing over and over to someone. Or how annoying it is when someone doesn’t put in the effort, or people ignore your suggestions, think they know better than you, or just don’t care. You think the new sim pilots are stubborn and eager and want to skip all the hard work? Try doing it with a 23 year old kid who thinks his Sh*t doesn’t stink because he gets paid to do it for real. I’ve never once met a new pilot at an FTU who wasn’t just a little bit cocky at some point in the training. But I would never tell a guy on the pre brief before his M1 that he will never fly my wing because he doesn’t know enough to ask me the right questions yet.
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you can treat it as a game hombre in which case your recommendation to go play it would be a good one
i mean the reason this thread is a thing is because he isn’t playing the game
if he was playing the game he would have at least specific questions about things he could ask about and/or read the manual
i was 300 hours into the game before i consulted the manual the first time, probably a good deal like you
but i wasn’t here bitching about the lack of documentation and training materials that i wasn’t reading because i CHOSE NOT TO READ THEM