Why not make an in depth Tutorial for the simulator ?
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got it and I do the same
The way ppl behave here tells me alot when they come knocking at our door for a slot in our VFWCall it elitist or not, I call it valued ressource management
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Well Iāll get it down eventually.
Also, 2-3 out of 25 ? Ouch. If someday thereād be said newbie in sim vocal guided tutorial teaching the basics, perhaps with a trainer aircraft, or maybe just sticking to the F-16, then there may not have to be that many people giving up. Iāve forgotten how many times I said this (I said thisā¦ right?), I canāt believe I never knew BMS existed before a week ago. It needs some more publicity to say the least, popularity should be great for it.
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@Cik:
this is āi am lazy, i want everything done for me. how dare you not cater to my every whim.ā
Dont know the age of the OP but this attitude is a chronic problem with the current generation.
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Mortesil
Just out of interest - How did you learn to fly BMS
I had a little experience, so my case is not the best metric to use, but the answer is I sat down and started playing. Iām not saying DONāT read the manuals. Iām simply saying itās possible to enjoy the game and learn as you go without spending a week (or more) up front reading 1500 pages. And I PERSONALLY feel, itās quite possible to enjoy the sim AS A GAME, without mastering the universe of Falcon first. Not everyone wants to be as near and close to the real deal as they can get right up front on day 1. Sometimes people just want to get in and go fly and shoot at something. And we shouldnāt be telling new players that they āCANāTā do that, just because that isnāt the true intent of the game as a study sim. Because you can. You absolutely can. And itās really not very hard to do so, with 5-6 sentences of guidance. We, as a community, should encourage those interested by giving them those 5-6 sentences, and hoping they catch the bug. Not calling them lazy or inadequate because they didnāt choose to learn the game the same way someone else did. In the end, itās still a game. And while it may be complex, itās not putting a man on Marsā¦ Who are you or I or anyone else for that matter to tell someone up front HOW they should play a game, or why they WONāT enjoy a game for doing it differently? We donāt know them, what they like, what they donāt like, how immersive they want to getā¦ enjoyment is a matter of perspective.
VFWs and individual instruction is a totally different story. You have every right to be selective or even harsh when it comes to something you have a personal vested interest in. Nobody is making negative comments about your refusal to invest that time in someone else who may have a different level of commitment than you do. But, that door goes both ways. Shouldnāt the community respect the OPs right to choose how they want to spend THEIR time? If nobody wants to answer their questions thatās fine, but discouraging them from continuing to learn the game based on your lack of desire to teach them is no different than me saying youāre lazy for not going out of your way to teach every new guy in the forums. You learn and teach how you want, spend your time how you want, and they do the same. But in the time it takes to write a snarky comment, defend that comment, or tell someone they will fail because they donāt read enough in the docs folder the question could have been answered 2x over. Just in general, the feeling is seldom supportive or hand-holding, let alone encouraging. There are a dozen comments in this thread alone which basically infer if you arenāt willing to put in years of work you will never succeed, never enjoy the game, and/or should stop trying. One comment more or less says that outright. But the new guys donāt know what they donāt know. Itās hard to ask pointed questions on day 1 with no frame of reference.
All the "you"s in that paragraph are meant in the general sense, not targeted at anyone in particular.
Iāve trained my share of BMS pilots as well. And I spent 14 years as either a flight instructor or flight evaluator in the AF, so I am fully aware of how frustrating it can be to teach the same thing over and over to someone. Or how annoying it is when someone doesnāt put in the effort, or people ignore your suggestions, think they know better than you, or just donāt care. You think the new sim pilots are stubborn and eager and want to skip all the hard work? Try doing it with a 23 year old kid who thinks his Sh*t doesnāt stink because he gets paid to do it for real. Iāve never once met a new pilot at an FTU who wasnāt just a little bit cocky at some point in the training. But I would never tell a guy on the pre brief before his M1 that he will never fly my wing because he doesnāt know enough to ask me the right questions yet.
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you can treat it as a game hombre in which case your recommendation to go play it would be a good one
i mean the reason this thread is a thing is because he isnāt playing the game
if he was playing the game he would have at least specific questions about things he could ask about and/or read the manual
i was 300 hours into the game before i consulted the manual the first time, probably a good deal like you
but i wasnāt here bitching about the lack of documentation and training materials that i wasnāt reading because i CHOSE NOT TO READ THEM
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Mortesil and Chu,
Having read through this entire thread - Chu everything you need to do to learn and prosper in BMS has been given to you, Manuals, You Tube, VFS - so get on and do it - or not !! there is no magic spoon, feed yourself the table is laid before you ā¦ and following Mowers lead - Iām out.
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@Red:
Why not an official VFW requiring membership?
They do the exact same job. There are multiples VFW, each with their own specificities. The advantage is that the newbee can choose according to what he likes
The VFW already struggle - what you suggest would be even more struggle.Well for one maybe someone new to BMS doesnāt have or want to commit the time most VFWs require. Maybe (like me) they have crappy internet and canāt meet minimum required speeds for most. Iāve been part of squadrons in a different sim in the past and I can see how someone may not want to get involved in that when they are new and not even sure yet if they will like this sim. Some VFWs Iāve looked at require a minimum amount of experience/understanding of BMS to join, they wonāt take total newbies.
Now hereās another way to think of it from your point. By offering newbies a taste of what itās like to fly online with other people, they may want to pursue it further and end up joining a group. You could almost use it as a recruiting tool.
As Iāve said, Iām new to this world myself so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Iām just offering up ideas, trying to help. Some people are not good at reading manuals and learning that way. The OP has said this and I can say my dad is definitely like that. I have always done well reading then doing. My suggestion is aimed at those who do better with guidance. The OP has stuck with this thread through 15 pages and going, who knows, he might stick with a training program if someone offered one. Whereas reading through hundreds of pages of foreign terminology might drain the drive right out of you.
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Am I the only one who sees an issue that someone out there has found this sim, shown interest, asked for help, made a rather valid suggestion (Because a lot of people have agreed with or championed the idea), and then the thread has turned into people telling him to go fly another sim because this one is too hard for him? Thatās not a good way to build a community.
I see a lot of talking from the OP, but not much in terms of actually following suggestions given to him. He has not given sufficient background info regarding his knowledge of flying or flight sims (does he understand how the 4 forces work and interact?), he has not shown that he has read any of the manuals, so maybe heās biting off more than he can chew?
Iāve suggested he starts out with the training document 4 days ago (post #50) and again suggested he start with TE01 (post #55). His next responses gave no indication of him actually reading and internalizing those advice. Instead, his next few responses were complaints, exaggerations, and pointless remarks with no bearing on his initial issue.
At this point, I donāt know if heās genuinely interested in learning the F-16 or if heās just here for the conversation. While he does raise some good points, he doesnāt seem to be interested in helping himself.
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The OP has stuck with this thread through 15 pages and going, who knows, he might stick with a training program if someone offered one. Whereas reading through hundreds of pages of foreign terminology might drain the drive right out of you.
He has stuck with the conversation, yes, but I donāt see any evidence of him actually furthering himself in terms of understanding the sim. Can he do a ramp start? Is he even studying to do a ramp start? Can he follow waypoints? Can he land the aircraft? I donāt know, but I suspect not.
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@Cik:
you can treat it as a game hombre in which case your recommendation to go play it would be a good one
i mean the reason this thread is a thing is because he isnāt playing the game
if he was playing the game he would have at least specific questions about things he could ask about and/or read the manual
i was 300 hours into the game before i consulted the manual the first time, probably a good deal like you
but i wasnāt here bitching about the lack of documentation and training materials that i wasnāt reading because i CHOSE NOT TO READ THEM
Iām not trying to be combative, truly, I think I just have enough experience to expect everyone to know nothing and have to start from: āThis is a tireā¦this is a wingā Maybe he didnāt know the manuals were there before? Doesnāt know what to look for in them? Doesnāt know which is which? What can be found in which one? If you have never done anything in BMS at all and try to get in and just go, the most obvious scenario is going to put in a dark aircraft ready for a ramp start right? Training Mission 1: Ramp Start, Taxi, Takeoffā¦ But again, with no frame of reference thatās not going to offer a lot of specificity in what to ask IE: How do I turn this thing on? Even going through it a couple times, youāre just following directions and not understanding what anything is or actually does. Monkey see, Monkey push button, monkey get banana. I donāt think he was initially bitching, I think he was expressing that the game is complex and there are a lot of new players who would benefit from a legit in-depth tutorial on even the most basic things. But most of have seen the argument so many times from new players your mind just defaults to āā¦ not willing to do the work, whining about it being hardā¦ā but it is hard. Itās meant to be hard. Itās meant to simulate as closely as possible to something that takes months to learn. But those months to learn in the real aircraft are exactly thatā¦ hand-holding. Spoon feeding. Letās go to the sim and you can WATCH me do a pre flight and engine start, several times. Then you can do your own, while I stand over your shoulder and answer all your questions. Letās sit down and chair fly a mission from start to finish. Here is a list 25 questions that I have chosen specifically to get you in the TO at very specific locations because you need to know it. Etcā¦
It is the definition of spoon-feeding. So on one hand the community champions the sim as a 99% accurate study sim that gets you as close to flying an F-16 as you can be without wearing a uniformā¦ then when itās inconvenient the community turns around and says āOh itās just a game, go read the manuals and youāll be fineā Well which is it? Itās accurate or itās just a game? If itās accurate then it completely makes sense to ask, and even bitch a little about not having something that rivals the real training process. If itās just a game and that isnāt required, then why do these topics keep coming up? Or why is there a dedicated Training Manual to try to help with these topics? Why do VFWs have months long IQT syllabi? Somewhere along the line you have to pick a side. The simple answer to the OP actual question is because it takes time and effort, and very few people like to give either away for free. The ones who do, like RD et al who spend all the time on the current manuals and training, do a great job providing what they can within the limits of their own time and sanity. But I donāt think new players should be chastised for wanting more avenues and material to help them start their journey. You and I could pick it up and run for a long time without needing the manuals. But 50% of the people in the world donāt have a technical or problem solving background that would push them through the task at hand. Nor do most of the people out there learn effectively simply from reading. Self study is only 1 of the 5 major learning methods, and itās thought to be the smallest contingent in the population.
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He has stuck with the conversation, yes, but I donāt see any evidence of him actually furthering himself in terms of understanding the sim. Can he do a ramp start? Is he even studying to do a ramp start? Can he follow waypoints? Can he land the aircraft? I donāt know, but I suspect not.
This I think is the point of this conversation. Youāre asking the wrong questions. Does he know what a ramp start is? Does he know there are other options for starting the aircraft? Does he know what a waypoint is? Or how to set them? This was the initial conversation, new players may not be able to even answer this because he may not know what any of it is.
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This I think is the point of this conversation. Youāre asking the wrong questions. Does he know what a ramp start is? Does he know there are other options for starting the aircraft? Does he know what a waypoint is? Or how to set them? This was the initial conversation, new players may not be able to even answer this because he may not know what any of it is.
Simply put: Heās been advised to start with the Training PDF and do the rampstart, and so far there is no indication of him doing soā¦ or any of the training TEs.
The community should not be the one asking questionsā¦ the onus is on the learner. Even if he starts with a general question and narrows it down as we go along, he has to initiate it. So far, Iāve seen very little, if any, of ālearningā questions.
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To be fair, several of us have kind of hijacked the thread on a tangentāsorry to the OPāso he may not want to interject in the fire at this point. But I kind of feel itās a relevant discussion and it provides some value to the community to discuss these kinds of things, so Iām only partially sorry.
Andā¦maybe he stopped replying because he took the advice and started reading and hasnāt been back to the forums.
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Iām not sorry at allā¦but thatās because Iām an a$$.
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But 50% of the people in the world donāt have a technical or problem solving background that would push them through the task at hand. Nor do most of the people out there learn effectively simply from reading. Self study is only 1 of the 5 major learning methods, and itās thought to be the smallest contingent in the population.
Exactly what I was getting at and this reminded me of something I saw recently.
Iām trying to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and move him up the cone.
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Maybe he didnāt know the manuals were there before? Doesnāt know what to look for in them? Doesnāt know which is which? What can be found in which one?
Clearly, these documents have by now been explained to him but it does not seem like heās any further forward in his learning.
there are a lot of new players who would benefit from a legit in-depth tutorial on even the most basic things.
It has to be monkey see/do/banana for a whileā¦. to combine know-nothing with an in-depth tutorial is just insisting they drink from the firehose and not spill a drop. DO what the training manual tells you to, get a positive result, do it a few more times, get the positive result a bit moreā¦ THEN tackle the other manuals which will show you which bits did what and why you had a positive result in the end.
But those months to learn in the real aircraft are exactly thatā¦ hand-holding. Spoon feeding.
Sorry, but even for PPL, there is minimal hand-holding and spoon feeding. At the very least, Iām told which document to search for and what search terms to use, then Iām left to do my own legwork and return for any questions. I would never dream of going back to my instructor only to whine about how there are too many abbreviations that I donāt understandā¦ā¦ Iād be wasting his time, my time, and my money!
Letās go to the sim and you can WATCH me do a pre flight and engine start, several times. Then you can do your own, while I stand over your shoulder and answer all your questions. Letās sit down and chair fly a mission from start to finish. Here is a list 25 questions that I have chosen specifically to get you in the TO at very specific locations because you need to know it. Etcā¦
That is great, but that requires a lot of timeā¦. mostly from professionals who get paid for their time. There are a few YT videos of rampstart in 4.33, so really, the information is out there if the OP had any true interest in searching for it and learning from it. At this point, itās not only hand-holding and spoon-feeding, I think weāre expected to masticate it for him too!
If itās accurate then it completely makes sense to ask, and even bitch a little about not having something that rivals the real training process.
The OP asked, and answers were givenā¦. but again, where is the OP now in his learning process? Has he successfully done a ramp start? Has he had a failed ramp start and is asking for help on where he went wrong?
The simple answer to the OP actual question is because it takes time and effort, and very few people like to give either away for free.
True, but no amount of time and effort on the communityās part will compensate for the lack of effort by the learner.
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Andā¦maybe he stopped replying because he took the advice and started reading and hasnāt been back to the forums.
He has responded to this thread twice todayā¦. with content not related to learning at all.
@ Chu: No offense meant to you, mate, but you have to show us that youāre actually taking advice on board. Feel free to ask questions as you learn the sim; I GUARANTEE you the community will be happy to answer and help out.
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Exactly what I was getting at and this reminded me of something I saw recently.
Iām trying to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and move him up the cone.And is exactly why I suggested he go and do TE01 a few times. I do hope heās doing soā¦. but so far, there has been no feedback from him on this.
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I think theres probably been enough āadvice sharingā in this thread, and considering i have seen multiple rules violations in it already i think we re all done here.
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