Idea for theater integration: DB compare tool
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Hi,
A major problem with working on theaters is the shifting original database of korea, which changes with every falcon version. For example while working on the israeli theater for OF, we had to rebuild the DB twice as it was almost ready for 4.5, then 4.6 came out, and when we almost finished again 4.7 came out. Naturally the same will happen with the next BMS versions. That’s not a problem if the theater uses the korea DB, however some theaters use a modified db (Aegean as another example) for theater models, more skin sets, etc. In Israel we also incorporate IAF inert training munitions and target ranges in south Israel (new objectives), F-16 upgrades done by the air force and so on. Overall there are hundreds of DB changes which need to be imported back to a stock DB with every falcon release. This is very time consuming and frustrating! It can weeks if not more to export / copy from the old DB and reapply it. If you forget something tiny the theater could become unstable which leads to even more delays.If there was a tool which compares two databases and points to the differences, an existing theater DB could upgraded to the latest version very easily, by simply modifying the values which have changed. It could be anything from simple lods (which may or may not be relevant for a theater), parents which point to a different lod # altogether, sensor weapon data, aircraft properties, objectives, whatever. Naturally the db is huge and most of the things DON’T CHANGE. However without such a tool or a very detailed changelog which is usually not available, one simply has to start from scratch.
We had OF 4.7 as a final version for many years so the problem wasn’t so bad. Now (thankfully) as F4 development is resumed, I think such a program would be of great benefit to theater makers. So BMS team, please if you have time and resources, please consider that
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I’m not sure why someone inside BMS needs to do that? That would be a great chance for a coder to show his chops, who knows, he might find his way into the team?
The SP3 code should be a suitable starting point I think, IIRC not too much changed database-wise…
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If there was a tool
There IS, WE the developers and our ten fingers keyboard pounding.:D
RAM22
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Maybe can be a problem if somebody create new WCD, ICD, ect. entries. These stuff in DB is linked with dat files, outside from DB.
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I’m not sure why someone inside BMS needs to do that?
Right, it can be anyone with ability to code and knowlage about falcon 4.
@RAM22:
There IS, WE the developers and our ten fingers keyboard pounding.:D
RAM22
That’s what i’ve been doing for years with theater modding, everything manually and strating from scrach each time… I’m becoming lazy
Maybe can be a problem if somebody create new WCD, ICD, ect. entries. These stuff in DB is linked with dat files, outside from DB.
Best option if the tool would look into these too.
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That’s what i’ve been doing for years with theater modding, everything manually and strating from scrach each time… I’m becoming lazy
Yeah, I know what you mean. We just finished and released ITO2 for FF. It had it’s own independent DB, lot of work.
RAM22
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@Itai - There is a tool that can provide record for record comparison. Contact Stefan Biker for details PM sent. As Brian (Ram22) indicated, the DB for ITO2 has a lot of work in it. How you build one for your version of Israeli Theater will determine how much time you spend. Brian was very helpful with identifying bad data in ITO2 and he is very familiar with ITO2 having spent quite bit of time on ITO2. He is an excellent resource and you might consider working with him in your independent effort. You might also contact Polak, the one who make the desert tiles for ITO2. I can send you my PSD’s for the port and airbase tiles that I made. There isn’t much water in ITO2 so there probably won’t be that much work in converting the tiles to include the water alpha channel.
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Sound great Ranger, I’ll contact him. Thank you.
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@Itai - There is a tool that can provide record for record comparison. Contact Stefan Biker for details PM sent. As Brian (Ram22) indicated, the DB for ITO2 has a lot of work in it.
Sound great Ranger, I’ll contact him. Thank you.
Any news? … what about that tool? … Could it be possible to have to and to make it public here?
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That is why i had the Allied Forces db open and the same time the BMS db on the other side - as comparision tool if you will.
Compared EVERY crucial values, RUN-cross-checked them ingame (datarate, stores, hardpoints, features, repairtimes, radars, flags, weapons, Roster-Slots …you name it …list goes on) …fixed EVERY unit + weapon we will use in next RF server (min/max speeds and alt, rolescore, vis sig (was completly missing), RCS, fuel rate, GW, MTOW …all the FLAGS… …list goes on) …again…cross check all ingame…adjust for most realism…bla bla bla… it is work…indeed.Same with the campaign (korea) …rebuilt every link properly in respect to mountains, streets…coast, riverbeds…priority, suppy and fuel values distributed logically, objects placed right, unit names and slots filled right…rosterfixes…etc etc)
The db needs to be seriously redone from beginning and one solid one needs to be released as basis for the future.
Too much stuff is tweaked to death, moddified to mutations or completly missing
Infact its pain in the arse, but with dedicated testing (fly it) and understanding…you can do real good “magic” for your campaign. in terms of more realistic warfare and environment.I (with Demers help too) could only do it for what is required on our next server, but there are other great theaters now (as in example Isreal) which also would benefit from proper database work and fixes (one i.e Mystic just did fixing the oversaturated airspace >> roster-slots) ….etc etc.
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@A.S:
That is why i had the Allied Forces db open and the same time the BMS db on the other side - as comparision tool if you will.
Compared EVERY crucial values, RUN-cross-checked them ingame (datarate, stores, hardpoints, features, repairtimes, radars, flags, weapons, Roster-Slots …you name it …list goes on) …fixed EVERY unit + weapon we will use in next RF server (min/max speeds and alt, rolescore, vis sig (was completly missing), RCS, fuel rate, GW, MTOW …all the FLAGS… …list goes on) …again…cross check all ingame…adjust for most realism…bla bla bla… it is work…indeed.Same with the campaign (korea) …rebuilt every link properly in respect to mountains, streets…coast, riverbeds…priority, suppy and fuel values distributed logically, objects placed right, unit names and slots filled right…rosterfixes…etc etc)
The db needs to be seriously redone from beginning and one solid one needs to be released as basis for the future.
Too much stuff is tweaked to death, moddified to mutations or completly missing
Infact its pain in the arse, but with dedicated testing (fly it) and understanding…you can do real good “magic” for your campaign. in terms of more realistic warfare and environment.I (with Demers help too) could only do it for what is required on our next server, but there are other great theaters now (as in example Isreal) which also would benefit from proper database work and fixes (one i.e Mystic just did fixing the oversaturated airspace >> roster-slots) ….etc etc.
You can’t compare AF and BMS’s DB … some values are no more used in BMS, and some other added … code behaviour is not the same etc …
Ie: if you copy and paste the fuel rate, Altitude etc … from AF or OF to BMS … you will have serious troubles.
In other words … if you have no clues about code … do not touch DB.
Any in an case, you will have t redo all the stuff at each major code change od BD change … will be the case for future BMS version (not patch).
BD work “is not for public” ppl.
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:mrgreen: thanks for head-up, but you dont have to be concerned. Once released it will sound for itself
But you are also right, you cant just punch in numbers out of here and there or other dbs or wikipedia ……is that why the current db is like that and messed up and not working in many parts?
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Echo7 whenever you have the time please hop on Team Archer TS so that we can discuss a few things about the great ITO campaign you have made, a few small fixes are required and I have identified them.
I spoke to one of your friend’s the other day and he must have conveyed my message to you.Peace
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LOL even Microsoft Access can do that Or maybe even Excel…
I have asked and in another thread… something familiar to that…
Can some one point to the files and some basic structure of them? By having a very quick eye on the Editor it’s a bit complex structure of text files… If they are indexed and given identifiers and some descriptions and properties like theater or airforce…
I believe the hard thing is to do it in the first place than it’s easy to manipulate and alter. only at the export u give them the form that falcon recognizes. But on the other hand falcon must use some way of indexing else it wouldn’t work, where can I see it? (this is my second trigger than gfx and particle… oh goody goody). Also SQL could help on this arena… and sql can kill them all.So a tool can be created to see change add delete. Sorry I forgot compare and point out too.
Edit: Also now it’s the best time to start this tool since BMS is still Fresh.
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The thing with altering values is……you dont know always what those will change in the MATRIX* …sometimes you do know, sometimes you think you know, but its not so.
Therefore punching in just ideological, theoretical or realistic “appearing” values will not deliver desired results as a promise every time…
First it must be understood how the engine TRANSLATES the data, then we can use common reasoning of warfare and AI-behaviour and try to adjust in order to get a more realistic environment back.
But in order to find this out (how the engine translates), it is inevitable to run multiple tests …and to do deeper observations…hell, i even join the AI as wingmen and watch what they do and how …and if that makes sense or if it is just stupid suicadal, unsupportive “drone-flying”
Even recording of the AI and watching their behavior in Tacview is part of this job (including ground units and SAMs). -
@A.S:
:mrgreen: thanks for head-up, but you dont have to be concerned. Once released it will sound for itself
What I mean … is that we (BMS team) can (maybe) help few major theater team … one or two, but we don’t have resources to help every single guy that want to tweak and update their theater DB. (PVP purposes in example.)
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appreciated
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@A.S:
Therefore punching in just ideological, theoretical or realistic “appearing” values will not deliver desired results as a promise every time…
“Unfortunately”, you are 100% right… (would be too easy )
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So to raise the dead… and put it in a context.
Let’s start with which are the files that need to be compared. This probably means all the database files. So they are? -
Even if we can get in the future a tool that’s able to compare distinct DBs, do you foresee the possibility to compare Parent data values also? Meaning hitbox parameters, LOD distances, Slot data…
Because in my point of view, that’s one of the most massive and boring aspects of DB update and from what I know, right now every single value must be input by hand…