CCRP LOFTING is very difficult
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if any thread exists, or any guidance at all would be very appreciated?
I cannot get most ordinance to come off the wing. hope you are all very well.
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Pickle only 2 seconds before time, Mach 0.9. And set a 20Ā° angle to be comfortable.
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Those are good tips. I do 35-40 degrees no problem. But it is certainly easier with decreased release angle setting. I think the proper way may be to pickle at the flashing circle que. I also wait until about 2 seconds before. Either way works fine. The most important thing Lorik has said is to be very fast!
33:05 I do a few lofts, krause narrates
Iāve also found that if there is turbulence, if you are near a cumulus cloud, a release will be absolutely impossible.
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The maneuver cueing is wrong in BMS. Itās simply too early. What should happen is solid circle comes up on the HUD and the instant it changes to flashing you should apply MIL thrust and 4G within 2 seconds. The resulting pitch up should cause you to reach CCRP solution with that 4G applied. The maneuver is completed usually by maintaining that back pressure and slicing back to a roughly āwhere you came fromā heading.
What happens if you do it by the book in BMS is you command G too early and blow right through 45 degrees nose up without ever achieving solution and release. The modification is to delay your maneuver āsome amountā and do the maneuver later and it all works great. One thing you can do is halve your desired release angle as your SMS entry. Then the cues will be much more right.
And lastly a 45 degree loft is only maximum range if your release and target are at the same height. If you are doing a medium altitude toss or dive toss you donāt want to loft that high; it will reduce your toss range. If you are going for a particular release angle, (e.g. LAT 45 degrees) donāt chase that last ten degrees. If you get a 35 degree release be happy! The extra standoff between 35 and 45 degrees is really tiny and not worth the risk of missing solution.
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The maneuver cueing is wrong in BMS. Itās simply too early. What should happen is solid circle comes up on the HUD and the instant it changes to flashing you should apply MIL thrust and 4G within 2 seconds. The resulting pitch up should cause you to reach CCRP solution with that 4G applied. The maneuver is completed usually by maintaining that back pressure and slicing back to a roughly āwhere you came fromā heading.
What happens if you do it by the book in BMS is you command G too early and blow right through 45 degrees nose up without ever achieving solution and release. The modification is to delay your maneuver āsome amountā and do the maneuver later and it all works great. One thing you can do is halve your desired release angle as your SMS entry. Then the cues will be much more right.
And lastly a 45 degree loft is only maximum range if your release and target are at the same height. If you are doing a medium altitude toss or dive toss you donāt want to loft that high; it will reduce your toss range. If you are going for a particular release angle, (e.g. LAT 45 degrees) donāt chase that last ten degrees. If you get a 35 degree release be happy! The extra standoff between 35 and 45 degrees is really tiny and not worth the risk of missing solution.
We do 5G in 2s just after the PUC has stopped flashing. Usually comes off the rail just right. Iāve not practised with dumb bombs, but lofting GBU12s is brilliant fun once the numbers āclickedā with me.
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when to pickle? before nose up or when the DLZI carrot gets close and under :05 seconds. the timing changes when I nose up, and generally stops before reaching zero.
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Pickle 2-4s before release. If you pickle too early, thereās a higher likelihood of the bombs not coming off the rails.
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Pickle 2-4s before release. If you pickle too early, thereās a higher likelihood of the bombs not coming off the rails.
Thatās roughly what we replied but he asked again, prepare for that
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My misunderstanding comes in procedure, Iām getting conflict in asking - when I nose up the time index increases, never reaching Zero. Do you pickle level, then pull Gs or do you pull to the angle, then, pickle?
Itās unclear in The videos and the instructions are not succinct . If it worked as intended, as described in the FM, I wouldnāt be posting, and I honestly find the little barbs immature . Yeah Iām asking twice , must be nice to know everything -also, be the one who wrote the FM/tested it/ coded it. There are no feelingns involved in the debreif -there is a multitude thanked post explaining how is broken, high horse much ?
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Thatās roughly what we replied but he asked again, prepare for that
I just want to learn and I find that elitist and rude.
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My misunderstanding comes in procedure, Iām getting conflict in asking - when I nose up the time index increases, never reaching Zero. Do you pickle level, then pull Gs or do you pull to the angle, then, pickle?
In theory, you pickle as soon as you are satisfied that you consent to release munitions on this pass, and you let go of the pickle button after the solution, or, at any point where you no longer consent to release (if there is any doubt about target ID, for example).
In BMS, there has been a longstanding bug defying attempts to fix it, where the pickle button after some time is āforgotten aboutā by the sim. So you press and hold, and get to the solution say 30 seconds later, but the bombs dont come off. So the advice has been to only pickle close to release - say, within a couple seconds of the release point.
If you are nosing up and the time to release increases, you will never reach the release point. Kill your pitch rate, hold the resulting attitude, and check the solution cue - if it is rising, you wont get to release on this pass - abort or call 2, OFF DRY as appropriate.
If nosing up causes the time to release to increase, then you are either past the solution point or you have way too poor performance to reach the solution point. What speed and altitude was this at? Low altitude, high speed is where you will most easily find the solution. If you try to loft just inside the max range cue, then as explained in detail above by Frederf, you wont have any luck with that.
Itās unclear in The videos and the instructions are not succinct . If it worked as intended, as described in the FM, I wouldnāt be posting, and I honestly find the little barbs immature . Yeah Iām asking twice , must be nice to know everything -also, be the one who wrote the FM/tested it/ coded it. There are no feelingns involved in the debreif(sic) -there is a multitude thanked post explaining how is broken, high horse much ?
(emphasis added)
This is a good line to think about. So is this one: Water off a duckās back.
If you feel like you are getting rained on, be the duck.
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youāre right of course, trying to learn grace, thank you very much for the response and the good natured guidance.
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youāre right of course, trying to learn grace, thank you very much for the response and the good natured guidance.
Also, remember that as you pitch up at 5G, youāre going to loose a LOT of speed. We fly at 500 GS, then to 540 GS for the attack run. As we pitch up for the loft, youāll need to go burner to keep the speed up at 540. If you donāt, your bombs may either not come off or simply fall short due to lack of energy.
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thanks gents. i was definitely not using that attack profile. I was at altitude, angels 18, heavy with fuelā¦I developed a technique around the information Iāve been told here with a hard deck of 12,000 avoiding MANPADS I can get a good loft at 30ā about 5-6 nm out from the target. very heavy flack and many infantry units in an area around hamhung making it difficult, mig-31 caps out of nachodka loitering so Iām flying out of sokcho coming into the IP at angels 32 diving into max speed setting up the attack point.
My method is simple now, like You said Blue wolf, if that time indexer isnāt going down, I abort. I only pickle under five seconds now, and I wait the fall line comes down, the circle blinks, and then the circle goes solid and I pull Gs up to 30ā, now Iām getting that indexer to go down. I threw 8 mk20s about 6 miles into a convoy of ks-19s using the low altitude approach as well. itās hard to do with any external tanks, full or not.
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thanks gents. i was definitely not using that attack profile. I was at altitude, angels 18, heavy with fuelā¦I developed a technique around the information Iāve been told here with a hard deck of 12,000 avoiding MANPADS I can get a good loft at 30ā about 5-6 nm out from the target. very heavy flack and many infantry units in an area around hamhung making it difficult, mig-31 caps out of nachodka loitering so Iām flying out of sokcho coming into the IP at angels 32 diving into max speed setting up the attack point.
My method is simple now, like You said Blue wolf, if that time indexer isnāt going down, I abort. I only pickle under five seconds now, and I wait the fall line comes down, the circle blinks, and then the circle goes solid and I pull Gs up to 30ā, now Iām getting that indexer to go down. I threw 8 mk20s about 6 miles into a convoy of ks-19s using the low altitude approach as well. itās hard to do with any external tanks, full or not.
The loft mode and symbology, unless Iām mistaken (Iād be gladly corrected by someone with reliable sources) are rather made for low-altitude approaches. You can use it at medium to high altitude but itās loosing most of its point, without mentioning the fact you can simply use the usual mode and drop in a climb to increase range. Aiming for a 20Ā° loft at such altitudes isnāt really intended in real life, nor on a simulator, because of major wind effect. You can do it in BMS, but youāll confront other issues that are not supposed to be taken account of, like the easy lack of energy youāre finding yourself with. I think gza360 replied having in mind you were nap-of-the-Earth, as itās how lofting was born. Gasman?
Dropping CCRP from high altitude is not really intended either, for the same reason. Though it sounds more reasonable to me than lofting from something like medium or high altitude. Unless precision is not your point at all, but dropping cluster bombs on moving targets from even medium altitude is rather a waste of ammo. While diving, you maximize your precision - and expose to ManPADs and AAA.
Youāre not safe from ManPADs at 12,000 ft, Iād rather say youāre even more in danger than at 500 ft. Flying even lower and as fast as you can would be your best bet - if you have to expose, of course. Flying 18,000 ft is safe.
Finally, if you bind a few humour chaff and flares to your CMS, youāll easily evade the softest missiles like the one I sent - this is the last thing Iāll write on that matter.
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IIRC the CCRP Loft cues assumes no loss of speed during the pull-up part - mostly true in low alt but not at all in high alt.
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I doubt thatās the total of its faults. I bet if I carefully manufactured a way to do the prescribed maneuver without losing any speed (or rather by releasing identically by other means) it would still miss solution. There is also an unexpected optimum loft angle if beginning and end are at different heights, assuming vacuum type trajectory. Angle = 0.5 arctangent (R/h); R being the range and h being the height of initial over final. For a 30,000ā R and 10,000ā h the optimum loft is 35.8Ā°.
For fun because I worked it out (i.e. looked up the hard stuff and manipulated it to a different form):
Tangent (Angle) = v / sqrt(v^2 + 2gh)Itās ugly but using the variables youād normally know: h, g, and v. But for extra fun we recognize that v^2 is essentially specific kinetic energy and gh is specific potential energy (specific, per unit mass). Using 2Ts = v^2, Us = gh, 2Es = v^2 + 2gh the angle in terms of kinetic-total ratio is:
Tangent (Angle) = sqrt(2Ts) / sqrt(2Es) = sqrt (Ts/Es).I think thatās pretty cool. We can test equal-elevation case where all of the energy is kinetic (no height), Arctan of 1 is 45Ā°. The smaller the kinetic energy is as a fraction of total energy (if thereās some potential) then itās Arctan of a number less than 1 which is less than 45Ā°. An interesting property is that the impact angle and the release angle add to 90Ā°.
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Youāre not safe from ManPADs at 12,000 ft, Iād rather say youāre even more in danger than at 500 ft. Flying even lower and as fast as you can would be your best bet - if you have to expose, of course.
Well, it may be true in real life, but not in Falcon in my experience : MANPADS react as though their servants always know youāre coming, and even mere SA-14s are sometimes shot from your forward quarter. So theyāre quite dangerous at low altitude. Flares can help a lot for some types, but low altitude means you usually have to know beforehand where the MANPADS is so as to confuse it in time.
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IIRC the CCRP Loft cues assumes no loss of speed during the pull-up part - mostly true in low alt but not at all in high alt.
Its not clear to me from your post whether you are talking about the BMS implementation here. I think you are, but just in case you are not, and for everyone elseās clarification, the real loft cues do take into account airspeed bleedoff in the climb as well as varying drag from loaded stores.
The loft mode and symbology, unless Iām mistaken (Iād be gladly corrected by someone with reliable sources) are rather made for low-altitude approaches. You can use it at medium to high altitude but itās loosing most of its point, without mentioning the fact you can simply use the usual mode and drop in a climb to increase range. Aiming for a 20Ā° loft at such altitudes isnāt really intended in real life, nor on a simulator, because of major wind effect. You can do it in BMS, but youāll confront other issues that are not supposed to be taken account of, like the easy lack of energy youāre finding yourself with. I think gza360 replied having in mind you were nap-of-the-Earth, as itās how lofting was born. Gasman?
Dropping CCRP from high altitude is not really intended either, for the same reason. Though it sounds more reasonable to me than lofting from something like medium or high altitude. Unless precision is not your point at all, but dropping cluster bombs on moving targets from even medium altitude is rather a waste of ammo. While diving, you maximize your precision - and expose to ManPADs and AAA.
Yes and no. The CCRP mode is very useful for a variety of applications. From a bomb theory perspective, any high altitude release is going to have very poor accuracy inherently. Any loft is going to have poor accuracy. A high altitude loft is going to have very poor accuracy. However, we can use guided munitions to address that accuracy concern. You can loft at high altitude to further increase standoff range, and with a JDAM for example, still retain high accuracy. Low specific excess power is a concern (which I suspect you meant by lack of energy), but its a concern that the real CCRP mechanism takes into account in displaying the solution cue.
High Altitude Release Bomb (HARB) profiles also have that lack of accuracy, so again they are more suited to guided munitions. If we dont have access to guided munitions for whatever reason, then in the tactical world we have to improve our accuracy in other ways. Dive bombing tends to be the most effective way of turning iron bombs into precise weapons, but it kills our standoff and it can be very fuel consuming to get the altitude for High Altitude Dive Bomb - not to mention the visibility that gives us.
thanks gents. i was definitely not using that attack profile. I was at altitude, angels 18, heavy with fuelā¦I developed a technique around the information Iāve been told here with a hard deck of 12,000 avoiding MANPADS I can get a good loft at 30ā about 5-6 nm out from the target. very heavy flack and many infantry units in an area around hamhung making it difficult, mig-31 caps out of nachodka loitering so Iām flying out of sokcho coming into the IP at angels 32 diving into max speed setting up the attack point.
My method is simple now, like You said Blue wolf, if that time indexer isnāt going down, I abort. I only pickle under five seconds now, and I wait the fall line comes down, the circle blinks, and then the circle goes solid and I pull Gs up to 30ā, now Iām getting that indexer to go down. I threw 8 mk20s about 6 miles into a convoy of ks-19s using the low altitude approach as well. itās hard to do with any external tanks, full or not.
Well, theres the tricks mentioned above for getting to a solution. The max range cue displays too early. So if we start our loft at the max range cue, we wont reach a solution. So, we need to delay our loft, or move the max range cue closer to the target.
The REL ANG setting is supposed to set the intended release angle of a loft begun at the max range cue. So, we can delay the display of the cue by lowering the REL ANG setting. If we set it to 25 or 20 instead of the default 45, the max range cue is displayed much later and its that much easier to reach a solution. Some folks leave the cue alone and just guesstimate, or apply a simple rule of thumb such as waiting 5 seconds after the cue for example.
We can modify our profile. The profile the real jet uses for its calculations is a 4G pull in under 2 seconds, at MIL power, and you hold the G until you fly through the release or you miss the solution. Some folks advocate using afterburner instead of MIL to try to increase our energy, making it easier to reach the solution. Im personally more a fan of delaying the loft rather than using afterburner, myself.
As mentioned above, a medium altitude loft such as you described isnt much use real world without guidance kits on the bombs. Winds aloft blow the bombs around, and the bomb computer can only adjust for winds the aircraft is currently experiencing. You minimise the effects by increasing bomb speed (thus decreasing time affected by wind) and shortening the distance the bomb has to travel (also decreasing time affected by wind). Dive bombing is the way to go for accuracy. That, or modern guidance kits.
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Well, it may be true in real life, but not in Falcon in my experience : MANPADS react as though their servants always know youāre coming, and even mere SA-14s are sometimes shot from your forward quarter. So theyāre quite dangerous at low altitude. Flares can help a lot for some types, but low altitude means you usually have to know beforehand where the MANPADS is so as to confuse it in time.
Agreed, theyāre more dangerous in BMS from what I could read/experiment. The risk of being fired at at 12,000 is probably considerably lower than by flying nearby at 200 ft. There is a downside to flying 12k, though, which is the lack of visibility on SAM launch. Practically, I would either choose to disappear from the 12k threats and expose to ManPADS very low at highest achievable speed, or fly even higher. A SA-13 or -19 would indeed be way less forgiving at this intermediate altitude; and we usually meet them when we want to hunt for the other vehicles of their battalion, thus from high (not low altitude with themā¦ :P). But theyāre not ManPADS, even though theyāre a possibility that makes a semantic debate rather useless.
Iām not really finding a situation where Iād stay at 12,000 ft from MSL anyway.
EDIT: Blu3, I wasnāt considering guided munitions at all in my reasoning.