Are tanks sitting ducks in real life.
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dunno about rwr, but most of the modern or modernized tanks do have laser warning… otoh any non sheltered equipment would be vulnerable to airborne threats. that’s why there are shorads, and that’s why there are stand off weapons and that why there are anti pgm air defense and so on… every weapon has a counter measure which has a counter counter measure, that’s how the defence industry makes it’s billions.
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Tanks without aircover against a modern airforce are expensive coffins.
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I need to get this off my chest.Are tanks really that vulnerable to AtoG attacks?If I knew what I know from F4 I would never step foot in one knowing that there are planes that see you from distance/lock on to you and then your dead.There has to be something to get men to climb into the vehicles.Who would build these high expense machines to throw them out to the field thats basically a shooting range?And so I have a few more questions.:p
So I wonder,do tanks have RWR built in?
Do they have men standing around them looking for enemy aircraft launching on them?
Do tank columns in real life have more AAA,manpads and sams with them than we see in game.
Do they execute more tricks into luring targets in.Stuff like setting an advanced radar and waiting for enemy planes to kill.Then when the plane thinks its safe to get closer and use up close weapons the y turn on the other radars and manpads and the enemy is pretty much dead.
Do tanks ever hide behind buildings to keep enemy aircraft from being able to lockon?
You should read Warthog by William Smallwood
Lots of description how armies (particularly tanks) without air cover are obliterated by air to ground attacks.
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Yes, they are. During ODS in one day with 46 F-111F destroyed 132 tanks and other vehicles. Varks carried typically 4 GBU-12 on tank hunting missions.
So I wonder,do tanks have RWR built in?
No, they do not have. Why should have? The most adavanced tanks have laser detector to dicover if anyone measure a range or use laser for missile guidance. In this case with diesel injetion tanks can generate smoke that block laser and covers tank IR signiture. On older T-54/55/62/64/72/80 and similar blue tanks do not expect in RL such and instrumentation.
An efficient RWR system in RL const millions of $.
BMS4 requires tweaked campaigns and DB to fulfill your wish concerning on battalion protection.
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Ok,so modern warfare really is how I picture it.Lockon had some missions where you were being fired upon from all directions and the hidden manpads were killer.Manpads where the death of me usually but you first needed to take out the long range AA support.
It just dawned on me that I have been playing all this time with the AI on easy so maybe I am talking out my wazoo
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molnibalage said: Yes, they are. During ODS in one day with 46 F-111F destroyed 132 tanks and other vehicles. Varks carried typically 4 GBU-12 on tank hunting missions.
Thats crazy and makes me wonder how dumb this army was to let loose all that armor unsupported or improperly.
No, they do not have. Why should have?
To see when a long distance radar is seeing them though I guess thats where the portable sams would be for.
BMS4 requires tweaked campaigns and DB to fulfill your wish.
Will this ever happen?
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You need a dedicated MANPAD carrier vechicle that can be assigned into a battalion roster. But if every battalion have MANPAD or SHORAD maybe mean over modeled defense. Therefore at least two types of battalion required form a T-72 battalion. One have olny AAA - only problem that even MG accuracy and damage seems to me seriously over modeled in BMS4 - and another should have SHORAD or MANPAD. Other issues is the qty. on missile for one platform and selecting the MANPAD counting the modeled era. This is why requires about every decade an own database…
Bigger problem in Falcon world modeling the identification problem and reaction time for IR guided systems.
(I know where can be set reaction time for radar guided systems: -
And back one minute later.OMG I entered mission with AAA sams on ace and the instant I spawned I had two sams headed my way….I dove to deck and a rapid fire sam was spraying me with missiles.LMAO that was hilarious and enticing at same time!!!
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You need a dedicated MANPAD carrier vechicle that can be assigned into a battalion roster. But if every battalion have MANPAD or SHORAD maybe mean over modeled defense. Therefore at least two types of battalion required form a T-72 battalion. One have olny AAA - only problem that even MG accuracy and damage seems to me seriously over modeled in BMS4 - and another should have SHORAD or MANPAD. Other issues is the qty. on missile for one platform and selecting the MANPAD counting the modeled era. This is why requires about every decade an own database…
Bigger problem in Falcon world modeling the identification problem and reaction time for IR guided systems.
(I know where can be set reaction time for radar guided systems:I have no idea how detailed the F4 campaign is so……coudln’t there be a chance of having dedicated MANPAD carrier vechicle?And the reaction time in F4 was what worried me.I would fly circles over sams and then all of a sudden when I went to land they would fire at me.But just now with ACE AI the sams loaded 10 missiles at me in a matter of 30 secs.
Also,someone posted about the sniper AAA and I did agree they were way too accurate.Lockon seemed real to me that if you loitered in the area at slow speed your dead but you did manage to easily evade the AAA.I mean if they are as accurate as BMS makes them then why bother with SHORAD?
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Will this ever happen?
You can count on me. But not now…
MolnyFalcon v2.0 will be released soon with hardcore campaigns and OOB. You can check what is achiavable by manipulating DB and modeling values.To see when a long distance radar is seeing them though I guess thats where the portable sams would be for.
In a large scale conventional war literally always give warning and most of them will be false by these sysetems. Older tanks units cost was typically 1-3 M$. It has no sense to integrate for every tank and vehicle. If air defense have they can protect its “herd”. Otherwise on blue side in RL mostly ground based or other CAS would guide the strike AC, therefore RWR on tanks does not help too much.
BTW, if you check Russian AC even from '80s they had quite primitve RWR even on 4th generation jets comparing with sophisticatad RWR of teenager fighters.
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I need to get this off my chest.Are tanks really that vulnerable to AtoG attacks?If I knew what I know from F4 I would never step foot in one knowing that there are planes that see you from distance/lock on to you and then your dead.There has to be something to get men to climb into the vehicles.Who would build these high expense machines to throw them out to the field thats basically a shooting range?And so I have a few more questions.:p
So I wonder,do tanks have RWR built in?
Do they have men standing around them looking for enemy aircraft launching on them?
Do tank columns in real life have more AAA,manpads and sams with them than we see in game.
Do they execute more tricks into luring targets in.Stuff like setting an advanced radar and waiting for enemy planes to kill.Then when the plane thinks its safe to get closer and use up close weapons the y turn on the other radars and manpads and the enemy is pretty much dead.
Do tanks ever hide behind buildings to keep enemy aircraft from being able to lockon?
Yes, Also fighter jets are sitting ducks in a modern conventional war.
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molnibalage great stuff about MolnyFalcon v2.0**.**While I agree that RWR on every tank is overkill and the air defense should be enough,I still feel that its a lose lose situation for armor.I mean a Shilka or a sam site is defeatable easily from a distance,or so thats how lockon portrayed it.Any attack on a column meant getting visual on the air defenses and taking them out from afar.Then just going in with guns and dumb bombs to clean up.I would not wanna be a tanker in a war against a superior air force.
Paveway,I agree to a point….you control how much of a sitting duck you wanna become but armor really are just sitting around waiting.
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Tanks don’t carry RWR (which is properly referred to as ESM or Electronic Support Measures), but there are specialized vehicles that do, and are completely passive. These however would most likely be positioned with battalion level assets and provide information at that level. Set several of these across an area and you can get efficient triangulation. These would even pick up RALT transmissions so there’s a reason you can turn it off at will with a switch. Once they know you’re there, they’d task longer range SAMS and tell them where to look, or even interceptors.
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You need to remember that OSD was in the desert, add some hills with trees and it’s not that easy, yeh yeh IR and stuff but will your maverick navigate around the trees?
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No.Remeber Desert storm… Iraqi tank commander said something like this :When I arrived in Kuwait I had 40 tanks.After air strikes I had 30.After 10 minutes of battle with M1A1s I had none.
Also remember Operation Allied force…Before KLA offensive effectivnes of NATO planes was extremly poor because of decentrailsed Serbian IADS and C3.You need ground forces.
IRL you dont fire 6 (in fact you carry only 2-4) agm65s per pass and you dont get down to 2000fts to drop CBUs etc.In “Vipers in the storm” play time was 30minutes and they would achive 3-7kills and in bms I can achive 10-20 alone. -
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Does the highway of death mean anything.
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Yes tanks with no air support or point air defences are sitting ducks. Facing such overwhelming forces guerrilla tactics are probably the only way to go…
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It’s all part of the food chain. If there was a weapon delivery platform that could do it all they’d have deployed it along time ago.
While you’re thinking “oh look a nice fat tank” zooming about up in the air, the tank commander’s thinking “Oh look, a nice fat platoon”. While the normal infantryman can only say “Oh shit… it’s a <insert vehicle=”" here=“”>"</insert>
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Well, I think it’s much easier to kill tanks in Falcon.
Now imagine, that all those forest textures are actual forests with 10m high trees. And in between them there’s a road with column of tanks driving. Your mav’s would burn half of the trees but the probability of kill is small. Right now forests in falcon are just textures, “bold as a knee”.