TE: AI not completing their tasks
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Hey guys,
Since we didn’t have enough members for the squadron mission we flew today, we relied on AI to complete certain tasks. This was the intended gameplan:
This is how it actually played out:
For whatever reason,
DCA 2 decided to never even go for the AOR,
and both SEAD flights turned cold well before reaching their farthest steerpoint. All four SEAD aircraft landed with everything they took off with still firmly attached to their wings.Except for the CAS, which were A-10C’s, all aircraft were fully fueled F-16’s with 370lbs wing tanks flying at +20,000ft. The farthest steerpoint is located 200NM from the departure airbase, so Bingo should not have been a factor at all.
In another package further East, (AI only; F-15 Escort, F-18 SEAD and F-16 Strike), the SEAD flight was also the only one that showed as ABORTED in the flight list on the debrief screen. Unfortunately, they were outside the bubble when they reached their target area, so I can’t check in the ACMI what happened to them.In the past, in other missions, I’ve noted such “cowardly behaviour”, where AI’s RTB long before reaching target area while fuel could not be a factor yet, as well. I’m not 100% certain, but I think most if not all were also SEAD-flights.
As you can see in the picture, the only AI in our package that flew what they were supposed to be flying, were the A-10’s, but because SEAD hadn’t done anything, 2 of their aircraft were shot down by the SA-6, and because the Eastern DCA wasn’t on station, the other 2 got jumped by MiG’s soon after. :roll:
Because it’s likely relevant to the aggressiveness of the AI:
- Pilot skill is always set to ACE on all sides.
- The config setting for offensive A2G is enabled.
Is there any way to fix this on our end while we wait for a future update? Some flag or behavioural characteristic we can enable through MissionCommander perhaps?
Thanks,
Eagle-Eye -
Impossible for me to tell you what it could be (and study it) as long as it is not under KTO, with mission files and repro case. Sorry.
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Never have understood why people post issues for an Add-On theater here in the BMS Tech support forum and NOT in the respective theater forum??? :roll::roll:
C9
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@Cloud:
Never have understood why people post issues for an Add-On theater here in the BMS Tech support forum and NOT in the respective theater forum??? :roll::roll:
As said, I’ve seen it in other missions as well. Though I didn’t initially specify it, that includes KTO TE’s as well. Today’s example just happened to be Balkans.
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Still … Needs mission saves and a detailed repro process to have a chace to “easily” try to figue out what could happens.
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As said, I’ve seen it in other missions as well. Though I didn’t initially specify it, that includes KTO TE’s as well. Today’s example just happened to be Balkans.
Regardless, this post has to do with Balkans and I haven’t seen any other post(s) about it happening in Stock KTO, so it should be in the relevant theater forum!!
C9
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Well it doesn’t reall matter if it’s balkan or not.
There were topics like this very one in Dev (started for 4.32 and pursued with 4.33) for KTO with repro cases, and specific plans of the TE designer and the action of the AI which was completely off
So it is an undeniable reality in 4.33Plus it’s a behaviour any VFW (mine included) perfectly know about. in 4.33 whenever you rely on the Ai tactically for mission dependent objectives you’re screwed
The trick is to make TE that doesn’t rely on them for the critical mission’s objective.
Don’t get me wrong. In most cases Ai behaviour is acceptable.
Some VFW creates complicated tactical scenario, way more complicated than most testers use and some flaws will become obvious in there
Many will never see these faults. Many will simply refuse to admit they exist. But the bottom line is that some of us make very tactical situation where one rely on the other for mission success and enjoyment and in many cases relying on the Ai to do what the TE planner had in mind is a toss of a coin. Tactically, the AI in 4.33 still have a lot to learn.
Maybe a part of the problem is that we expect too much of them…So it’s definitely NOT related to the terrain,I’d vouch for that
It’s Ai behaviour one oh oneNow, it’s a really complicated subject and one that can depend very much on many factor, the way the TE is designed not being the least.
But the general factor is still that Ai in 4.33 can’t be trusted as humans would. Let’s face it who in real life would trust an Ai as a human. So that’s not only for 4.33. It’s for everything.I’d venture that there is nothing indeed than can be done about it - at this point.
Rest assured that most of us in the dev team know about it and between these who report these issues and those who fix them, a lot has been done already. And I mean a lot !
It never will be perfect, but it’s getting better with each release.
So stay tuned and be patient. -
Hey guys,
Since we didn’t have enough members for the squadron mission we flew today, we relied on AI to complete certain tasks. This was the intended gameplan:
This is how it actually played out:
For whatever reason,
DCA 2 decided to never even go for the AOR,
and both SEAD flights turned cold well before reaching their farthest steerpoint. All four SEAD aircraft landed with everything they took off with still firmly attached to their wings.Except for the CAS, which were A-10C’s, all aircraft were fully fueled F-16’s with 370lbs wing tanks flying at +20,000ft. The farthest steerpoint is located 200NM from the departure airbase, so Bingo should not have been a factor at all.
In another package further East, (AI only; F-15 Escort, F-18 SEAD and F-16 Strike), the SEAD flight was also the only one that showed as ABORTED in the flight list on the debrief screen. Unfortunately, they were outside the bubble when they reached their target area, so I can’t check in the ACMI what happened to them.In the past, in other missions, I’ve noted such “cowardly behaviour”, where AI’s RTB long before reaching target area while fuel could not be a factor yet, as well. I’m not 100% certain, but I think most if not all were also SEAD-flights.
As you can see in the picture, the only AI in our package that flew what they were supposed to be flying, were the A-10’s, but because SEAD hadn’t done anything, 2 of their aircraft were shot down by the SA-6, and because the Eastern DCA wasn’t on station, the other 2 got jumped by MiG’s soon after. :roll:
Because it’s likely relevant to the aggressiveness of the AI:
- Pilot skill is always set to ACE on all sides.
- The config setting for offensive A2G is enabled.
Is there any way to fix this on our end while we wait for a future update? Some flag or behavioural characteristic we can enable through MissionCommander perhaps?
Thanks,
Eagle-EyeAI loadout ?
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Discovered why the second DCA (Falcon) never showed up…
Over the AOR, I couldn’t see them in the ACMI, so initially, I just assumed they were outside the bubble, but as it turns out, they never took off to begin with.Their scheduled take-off time was 103715, 4 minutes before ours at 104100, but because they came from the far side of the airfield and AI doesn’t account for required taxi time (apparently?) they ended up behind us (humans) at the holding point, despite us only beginning to taxi at 103725.
Our #4 (AI-controlled aircraft) was kind enough to let Falcon pass, and only began moving behind them at 103955. When we took off at 104100, our #4 taxied through the entire Falcon-flight, however, and took off first at 104311. At 104325, Falcon 11 begins taxiing onto the runway, but never takes off, until at 104716, the entire Falcon-flight just vanishes from the ACMI.
I assume there is a time-out limit of 10 minutes behind their ETD?
@Red:
in 4.33 whenever you rely on the Ai tactically for mission dependent objectives you’re screwed
The trick is to make TE that doesn’t rely on them for the critical mission’s objective.Probably why most / all the examples I recall are SEAD not doing what they’re supposed to. Except for once in a blue moon, we only fly the F-16AM-BE, which can’t carry the AGM-88, meaning we always have to rely on the AI to do SEAD for us.
Looking at the SEAD flight plan:
They both have two SEAD-waypoints (both En-route and Action set to SEAD), the first being located approximately 50NM before the second. I’ve done it like this because I’ve noticed that they can sometimes get too close to the SAMs before their SEAD-task is triggered and they get shot down. I hoped to resolve this by having 1 waypoint trigger the tasking, then have the second as a “fly here to find your targets”.Looking at the ACMI, I can tell the SEAD pushes through their first waypoint for about 10 - 20NM, before they turn cold. This leads me to the theory that the AI SEAD does a search pattern at and slightly beyond their first SEAD-waypoint, but if they don’t get targeted by or no SAM is found within a certain range, they assume their target is destroyed or relocated, and RTB?
At that point, they were about 30 - 40NM away from an SA-2 and SA-6, though, so they should’ve had at least some indication of the SA-2 and the SA-5 further east being active, I believe…
AI loadout ?
Second DCA (fourship F-16AM-BE), each aircraft had a 501+, 2x 370 Gal wing tanks and ALQ-131.
Both SEAD flights (twoship F-16DM-40) had 2x AGM-88, 2x 370 Gal wing tanks, and HTS.
One had 301+ and ALQ-184, the other had 400+ and ALQ-131.CAS (fourship A-10C) was 002+, 2x AGM-65D, 3x CBU-105, 2x GBU-54, 1x LAU-68/131 HE, TGP and ALQ-119.