4.34 - IDM principles of operation
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obviously now the entire dynamic changes….
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I noticed AI flight lead will do CONT but I didn’t know that it will include all flight leads in package too. Good info!
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in the same package, now we have to get the same IDM table!
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Lorik also has an interesting concept for how to sort a 20 ship package:
-package lead hosts his flight and other leads in CONT UHF
-one flight member in each of the other flights hosts a VHF CONT round
-the lead for each of the other flights toggles back and forth between VHF/UHF in his Intraflight DL DED page LIST-ENTER-SEQ-(any ICP number) to either join his flight member’s CONT round (see his own flight members) or the package lead’s CONT round (see other flight leads) -
Gasman’s SOP up there using DMD will be interesting for a test. I guess they’ll give us feedback on it soon.
And kudos on the accent: “à” la…
To illustrate previous post:
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Hey I’m an F-16 Crew Chief in real life and I noticed that in 4.34 (and in the .pdf OP created) the Link-16 only extrapolates for 8 seconds between data link responses. This felt wrong, as your flight members will drop of data link for a few seconds between updates, so I went and looked it up in the real -34 and sure enough the extrapolation period is 13 seconds in real life, long enough for friendly members of your flight to stay on your HSI forever. I can’t post the whole manual in its entirety, but here’s the relevant section:
From the -34:
“Between receipt of air PPLI updates, PPLI symbol positions are extrapolated and
updated for a maximum of 13 seconds to minimize excessive jumps in displaying the track position between receipt of the Link
16 update messages. Air PPLI tracks are purged, if an update has not been received for 13 seconds.” -
BMS does IDM and TDL (Link 11A B or 4) though. Link 16 is separate and runs over dedicated MIDS radios.
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I’ll consider it a trade-off for the IFF. :thumb:
I see it as something we’ll get used to as we use it and we now have a document explaining the nuances.
I’m actually enjoying learning all the new quirks.
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Hey I’m an F-16 Crew Chief in real life and I noticed that in 4.34 (and in the .pdf OP created) the Link-16 only extrapolates for 8 seconds between data link responses. This felt wrong, as your flight members will drop of data link for a few seconds between updates, so I went and looked it up in the real -34 and sure enough the extrapolation period is 13 seconds in real life, long enough for friendly members of your flight to stay on your HSI forever. I can’t post the whole manual in its entirety, but here’s the relevant section:
From the -34:
“Between receipt of air PPLI updates, PPLI symbol positions are extrapolated and
updated for a maximum of 13 seconds to minimize excessive jumps in displaying the track position between receipt of the Link
16 update messages. Air PPLI tracks are purged, if an update has not been received for 13 seconds.”We dont simulate Link 16 in 4.34. The IDM Intraflight datalink extrapolating period is different and is indeed 8s
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U don’t need other wingmans. Having the leads is just enough. If u loose a leader u switch to element leader or 3.
U just need the general position of a flight lets say in a comao. If things get furbal u can switch to the close flight members or visual cause in a furbal id`s will not help much.
Mostly its like the i want to see them all.
If its training and u want to see formations ok put whatever.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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This is a big deal, thanks for the heads up!
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Lorik also has an interesting concept for how to sort a 20 ship package:
-package lead hosts his flight and other leads in CONT UHF
-one flight member in each of the other flights hosts a VHF CONT round
-the lead for each of the other flights toggles back and forth between VHF/UHF in his Intraflight DL DED page LIST-ENTER-SEQ-(any ICP number) to either join his flight member’s CONT round (see his own flight members) or the package lead’s CONT round (see other flight leads)Drawbacks being, the lead disappears from the package DL whenever he checks wingman datalink, or if he wants to share AG datalink with his flight.
I am keen to hear some feedback from people who know how the system works IRL - a reading of the manual lent me the impression that RL, having different teams on the same frequency was a good way to screw up everyone’s symbology.
1.5.2.7.9.2 For proper intraflight communication, all members of the 8-ship team must have the same set of team addresses and no two team members can have the same address. The team table is the method used to coordinate the transmission
sequences of the team member IDM’s during an A-A intraflight round. If the team address tables are not similar among team members, mismatch of team members and their ID’s/addresses will occur. Team table mismatch results in incorrect display of
intraflight data link symbology on the MFD.1.5.2.10.1 Operational usage of these modes require prior coordination to ensure correct data link communication. Each member must be using the same radio (UHF or VHF), on the same frequency, with the same IDM data rate, and team table setup. This coordination may be done during preflight with mission planning data or while enroute using voice radio. If there is more than one 4-ship team, radio frequency isolation between teams is required for proper intraflight IDM operation.
As the helpful document linked points out, its a radio. Two people XMIT at the same time, neither gets through properly. If aircraft have different tables, you will get two or more aircraft trying to reply at the same time to the round.
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U don’t need other wingmans. Having the leads is just enough. If u loose a leader u switch to element leader or 3.
U just need the general position of a flight lets say in a comao. If things get furbal u can switch to the close flight members or visual cause in a furbal id`s will not help much.
Mostly its like the i want to see them all.
If its training and u want to see formations ok put whatever.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
And what about the leads? Using CONT in a 20 ship package there will be 4 leads that can’t see any of their wingmen… Doesnt work.
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Well u need hsi to see them?
U hear them u see them with your eyes. Your 3 can have them and report to you.
Also use AA tacan for your 3 to have distance from him if you want something visual.
Your tasked mission is to destroy something or prevent something, not viewing where your wingman is on the hsi or fcr. This is prerequisite and part of your training.
U will ask what about AI? Well humans do it better, and in campaigns i dont think there are comao missions. So your problem solved.
This builds a good SA i believe and you don’t rely on the gizmos for everything.
They have rules and they follow it.
Don’t have the idea that real pilots on missions have a God’s eye for everything.
So they must use what they have to maintain SA and be effective.
They even train with no voice comms and use airframe or hands and head for signaling.Excuse me the humor here:
Pfff youngsters want it all like video game… [emoji38]
Real men do it the hard way, and are effective.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
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Real pilots on missions do have that arty… That’s what the MIDS LVT provides.
But it’s not necessary, I agree. You don’t need datalink to find your wingman, or flight lead - some folks could stand to use a formation refresher, perhaps.
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Well u need hsi to see them?
U hear them u see them with your eyes. Your 3 can have them and report to you.
Also use AA tacan for your 3 to have distance from him if you want something visual.
Your tasked mission is to destroy something or prevent something, not viewing where your wingman is on the hsi or fcr. This is prerequisite and part of your training.
U will ask what about AI? Well humans do it better, and in campaigns i dont think there are comao missions. So your problem solved.
This builds a good SA i believe and you don’t rely on the gizmos for everything.
They have rules and they follow it.
Don’t have the idea that real pilots on missions have a God’s eye for everything.
So they must use what they have to maintain SA and be effective.
They even train with no voice comms and use airframe or hands and head for signaling.Excuse me the humor here:
Pfff youngsters want it all like video game… [emoji38]
Real men do it the hard way, and are effective.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk
you’re right, what am I saying… Rip all that junk out and give me the 80’s theater already!!!
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Why use a car when you can roam around in a horse cart, it has wheels and gets you to places too? Or use radar when you have two perfectly good mk.I EM receivers on your face? DL is not a substitute for comms and there’s nobody telling you you need to use it arty, be a man and paint all that SA in your head without sensors, nothing can go wrong
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100% I agree, but in this case its more like if the horse cart is the only tool you had, most folks couldnt figure out how to get into town… you dont have mutual support if all you have is a vague idea of where the DL says your wingman is.
DL is useful for heaps of things, but if you use it primarily to figure out where #3 is, then you dont have the basic building blocks you need to employ safely anyway.
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One day, I’ll grow a very big beard. I think I’ll be able to turn avionics off.
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Real pilots on missions do have that arty… That’s what the MIDS LVT provides.
But it’s not necessary, I agree. You don’t need datalink to find your wingman, or flight lead - some folks could stand to use a formation refresher, perhaps.
Hmmmm in a comao there are and mixed airframes. So m2k a7 and F4 have what u say?
I dont think so. Doesnt that depends on the upgrade and electronics they have? Maybe m2k has it.
So the gizmo is out of the equation.
We might have it in bms but not in real.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T818A using Tapatalk