Recover from hot start
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Still will not help me learn hotstart if I skip it
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Your situation is the same as before.
1.make sure your launcher has cut off.
2.confirm that the throttle is in the off position and turn on JFS2
3.at this time, the speed will slowly rise and stop at 25%
4.fix the throttle to the IDLE(70%) position, and continue with other ramp start programs. -
Still will not help me learn hotstart if I skip it
sorry but i dont know WTF you are doing
The JFS running time is 4 minutes (normal condition) + 4 Minutes (heating) totally independant from anything else, it will run the same time @RPM20 or while ventilating.
After 8 minutes, the JFS will be broken and will shut down (your jet is dead then)
Of course, this is assuming that:
- you dont move your canopy when operating the JFS
- you dont use any time compression
That means you have PLENTY of time to ventilate with JFS and restart
here is a video i just made to teach you:
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Iām slowly learning more about JFS which I have some kind of learning block about. Iām going to write some things and please tell me what details (or major concepts even) Iām wrong about.
You canāt think of JFS having a ācharge.ā JFSās charge is all the fuel in the airplane and will run forever*.
*Not actually forever as JFS has other limits and characteristics but it has nothing to do with the accumulator energies.
What has a charge (or 2) are the brake/JFS accumulators. The accumulators are only to get the JFS running and thereafter are irrelevant unless the JFS stops running without engine start and JFS must be started again. Recharging of accumulators is done via hydraulic system pressure or manual pumping. JFS power alone will never recharge accumulators.JFS continual run prior to ground start is limited to 4 minutes by written regulation. The RPM during motoring varies based on engine model and environmental conditions. Presumably a real F-16 JFS can run for somewhat longer than 4 minutes at the risk of damage or automatic shutdown. This would explain why in certain conditions JFS may shut down automatically earlier or later than 4 minutes, especially earlier following a hot start.
In the above video the FTIT was below 200C in about 38 seconds. By written regulation 1 minute wait time is needed between start attempts. If the FTIT doesnāt get under 200C before the 4 minute motoring limit or JFS shuts itself down then you have to have JFS off for 5 minutes and manually recharge accumulator if necessary before the next attempt. There is no guarantee that a second start attempt on the same JFS run is possible. It probably helps to react as quickly as possible to the hot start to limit the fuel and heat that needs to be removed.
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Iām slowly learning more about JFS which I have some kind of learning block about. Iām going to write some things and please tell me what details (or major concepts even) Iām wrong about.
You canāt think of JFS having a ācharge.ā JFSās charge is all the fuel in the airplane and will run forever*.
*Not actually forever as JFS has other limits and characteristics but it has nothing to do with the accumulator energies.
What has a charge (or 2) are the brake/JFS accumulators. The accumulators are only to get the JFS running and thereafter are irrelevant unless the JFS stops running without engine start and JFS must be started again. Recharging of accumulators is done via hydraulic system pressure or manual pumping. JFS power alone will never recharge accumulators.JFS continual run prior to ground start is limited to 4 minutes by written regulation. The RPM during motoring varies based on engine model and environmental conditions. Presumably a real F-16 JFS can run for somewhat longer than 4 minutes at the risk of damage or automatic shutdown. This would explain why in certain conditions JFS may shut down automatically earlier or later than 4 minutes, especially earlier following a hot start.
In the above video the FTIT was below 200C in about 38 seconds. By written regulation 1 minute wait time is needed between start attempts. If the FTIT doesnāt get under 200C before the 4 minute motoring limit or JFS shuts itself down then you have to have JFS off for 5 minutes and manually recharge accumulator if necessary before the next attempt. There is no guarantee that a second start attempt on the same JFS run is possible. It probably helps to react as quickly as possible to the hot start to limit the fuel and heat that needs to be removed.
SORRY i should have been more precise
There is absolutly no LIMIT of 4 Minute for JFS running.
After 4 Minute, the JFS will start to heat, indicated by a slow flashing Lamp
after 8 Minutes, the JFS will suffer damage from heating and switch off, indicated by a quick flashing lamp.
So, normally you have 8 minutes of JFS running before JFS going off ā¦ā¦
in conclusion :
i still dont understand what PutYawa is talking about when he says his JFS turns off prematurly.
We probably
- move his canopy
or
- switch off his main power switch
or
- switch off his JFS
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Thank you for video, it is exactly what I expect to happen but is not happen for me.
In TE 01, I close canopy at start just for noise and not move canopy after. Dash 1 says this on page 166
2. Moving forward you can close the canopy (spider). It is advisable to do so before engaging the JFS.
so close canopy should be OK, no?
I do not switch off JFS switch or anythin, just leave aircraft alone, wait for FTIT to cool. When put throttle back to CUTOFF, engine RPM die slowly. Is JFS consume? Maybe, or not. Is JFS off prematurly? Maybe, or not. But engine RPM die slowly, by time FTIT is 200C, RPM is 0%. Why engine RPM die if JFS still running?
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Thank you for video, it is exactly what I expect to happen but is not happen for me.
In TE 01, I close canopy at start just for noise and not move canopy after. Dash 1 says this on page 166
so close canopy should be OK, no?
I do not switch off JFS switch or anythin, just leave aircraft alone, wait for FTIT to cool. When put throttle back to CUTOFF, engine RPM die slowly. Is JFS consume? Maybe, or not. Is JFS off prematurly? Maybe, or not. But engine RPM die slowly, by time FTIT is 200C, RPM is 0%. Why engine RPM die if JFS still running?
Please make a video
Are you sure you donāt have an engine fire ?
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What program best to make video? I try again, I remember some try engine fire mabye, other try no engine fire. Is engine fire = no restart?
I wait until FTIT at 700-800C range as stated in manual, do not remember checking for engine fire. -
What program best to make video?
=> https://lmgtfy.com/?q=How+to+make+in-game+video+captures%3F
nVidia integrated tools
OBS
FRAPS
BANDICAM
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Yes, canopy operate is fine if completed before engine start. You want minimal electric system draw during start. I think in real airplane it is a bad idea to open/close canopy 100 times before which might drain battery but I donāt think this matters for BMS.
Only thing I can think is you are allowing RPM to increase during start so JFS turns itself off and when you select cutoff.
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I allow RPM to increase to above 750 and throttle go CUTOFF before 800 since Dash 1 says āIf you see FTIT rising at an alarming rate or go above 750Ā°C you are encountering a hot startā
Not sure if JFS is off but I do not turn it off and during cooldown, the JFS sound still on, light still on, switch still on Start 2 position. -
That with the canopy is just plain WRONG. Hereās the proof. There is no problem closing canopy with just started JFS.
Look at video 3:34 onwards ā¦ Actually it is Thunderbirdās F16 .
SOā¦ BMS is WRONG in this matterā¦ just dare to say its fake
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That with the canopy is just plain WRONG. Hereās the proof. There is no problem closing canopy with just started JFS.
Look at video 3:34 onwards ā¦ Actually it is Thunderbirdās F16 .
SOā¦ BMS is WRONG in this matterā¦ just dare to say its fake
no itās not wrong,
itās not systematic, there is a PROBABILITY that JFS shuts down in BMS when closing canopy, as in real
refer to proper engineering documentation
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Ok, Iāll take that, but it REALLY seems like a far remote PROBABILITY ,ā¦ like āPilotā is not worried about it at all (of course, generator is behind corner) , but, He is not interrupting his 'automation powerup script not a single moment.
So , that PROBABILITY should be set to 1-5% , not more. ā¦ - I have no problem with the RTFM and with following procedures but it would be nice that procedure would be close to the truth as much as possible, since we enjoy quite a real simā¦ so be it. :thumb:
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I allow RPM to increase to above 750 and throttle go CUTOFF before 800 since Dash 1 says āIf you see FTIT rising at an alarming rate or go above 750Ā°C you are encountering a hot startā
Not sure if JFS is off but I do not turn it off and during cooldown, the JFS sound still on, light still on, switch still on Start 2 position.RPM is from 0-100%. There is no ā750 RPM.ā
You cannot let FTIT go above about 750Ā°C during a hot start of the engine will break and never run again. The tip is how to identify a hot start which is an alarming rise or any time being above some temperature (which wonāt be reached at any pace during a normal start). Notice the word āor.ā
An alarming rise that also reaches ~700-750Ā°C (and, not or) is unrecoverable. It is identifiable as a hot start but a second start will not be possible. Itās not the JFSās fault. JFS continues to run but wonāt turn the engine. You can shut down completely, recharge the accumulators and try again and you wonāt get any RPM. I always get the āENG FIREā warning associated with an unrecoverable engine failure.
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Sorry, I mean FTIT above 750, not RPM.
If you see FTIT rising at an alarming rate or go above 750Ā°C you are encountering a hot start
As not a pilot, I do not know what is or not alarming rate. As not a pilot, I know what is go above 750C, so that I follow. The word āorā means I can follow either, no?
FTIT should not go above 800Ā°C. If you see FTIT rising at an alarming rate or go above 750Ā°C you are encountering a hot start; immediately pull the throttle back to CUTOFF and let the FTIT decrease to 200Ā°C while the JFS is running, before attempting another engine start.
I do not get FTIT above 800C, put throttle go CUTOFF between 750-800C. I copy above from Dash 1 page 166 and from reading, it sounds like it can possible to restart engine and not unrecoverable.
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RPM is from 0-100%. There is no ā750 RPM.ā
You cannot let FTIT go above about 750Ā°C during a hot start of the engine will break and never run again. The tip is how to identify a hot start which is an alarming rise or any time being above some temperature (which wonāt be reached at any pace during a normal start). Notice the word āor.ā
An alarming rise that also reaches ~700-750Ā°C (and, not or) is unrecoverable. It is identifiable as a hot start but a second start will not be possible. Itās not the JFSās fault. JFS continues to run but wonāt turn the engine. You can shut down completely, recharge the accumulators and try again and you wonāt get any RPM. I always get the āENG FIREā warning associated with an unrecoverable engine failure.
the temperature of fire depends on the engines !!!
so some of them can afford much more than 750 , some others canātā¦
PW 200 & PW 220 :
ground fire 720 deg
PW 229
ground fire 840 deg
GE 100
ground fire 980 deg (it should be 880 here, this is a bug)
GE129
ground fire 880
that could be the OP problem
what block do you use ?
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If this is the first training TE (white and red fuselage, two seat Viper), then itās a Block B, with either a 200 or 220 engine.
Dash-1 is written for Block 50/52, which means some specific details are are not correct for older blocks. In particular, thereās less leeway for dealing with hot starts on older engines.
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Best would be to have markings on FTIT gauges for each engines models ā¦
ex:
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Best would be to have markings on FTIT gauges for each engines models ā¦
ex:
Or in russian way. Rotate all meters so that when they point north all is ok.