IFR Briefing for noobs.
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Great initiative spooky! Personally i’d love to learn more about IFR, especially about approach and departure patterns. When you fly a departure do you use a specific F-16 turn rate? E.g. the PATRO departure plate for Kunsan reads: “Left climbing turn to 360° to intercept R-035°” How fast would you have to turn here after take-off?
I’m happy you have interest
Actually i don’t really know for fast jet, i use a Rate 1 turn.
Rate 1 turn is actually a bank angle at which ( if you maintain that bank angle) you turn at 3 degrees per second.
Now the airplane i used had an instrument which is called a turn coordinator, with an airplane banking on the side of my turn and it will bank at an rate equal to my roll rate.
There is a white line on each side giving me the Rate 1 reference, but in the F-16 you will have to calculate it.
Here you go:
The approximate bank angle required to achieve a standard rate turn ( 3 degrees per second) is equal to 1\10 of the TAS ( True airspeed) + 7.
If you fly at 300 knots your bank angle for a Rate 1 turn would be:
(300\10) + 7 = 37 degrees of bank.
To go a little bit further, you must think of how your airspeed has an direct impact on your turn radius and turn rate. The faster the steeper the bank angle to achieve a Rate 1 turn.
Why do we use rate 1 ?
Rate 1 means 3 degrees \ second, … this means that in 60 seconds you would execute a 180 degree turn.
This means that if you fly a heading of 360 at 300 knots, and you turn right/left at 37 degrees of bank angle you would take 1 min to reach a heading of 180 degrees.
Now how practical is that ?
Well imagine you have to fly a hold, and when you do a hold ( if you don’t know what a hold is, just tell me and i will explain it to you ) and you turn ( because you fly in a racetrack pattern) you want to have the same exact turn the same time so it really looks like a perfect race track, you take a rate 1 turn, and you expect that after 1 min you are on the track you want.
Why after 1 minute, because as i said above we fly in a racetrack, therefore we fly a heading let’s say 360, after let’s say 1 min we turn right to the opposite heading, that’s where we want a perfect turn, so we use rate 1.
If after 1 minute we are not on your desired heading, and we kept the right bank angle all the way during the turn, it means that we have wind drift, and we can correct accordingly.
But what you should keep in mind is that he rate 1 turn gives you a means of flying a controlled turn if you want and you have a timing in hand to plan stuff. it takes away the turns based on guess and feelings.
What i recommend you to do is that before you take off, do a departure briefing, where you read out loud everything that is written on your departure plate, brief yourself about airspeed, calculate your bank angle accordingly and follow it in the air, it is all about preparation.
You will then discover how fun BMS can be when you try to fly precisely like that, it will give you another aspect of flying and you will have the very rewarding satisfaction that you did something
Hope my post is not too long but i want to be sure you understand the why and when
Spooky.
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Hi all,
Its all on the web (WWW) these days even exam and test manuals/papers you might have to subscribe and pay a small fee here and there but its all online and if you visit squads they have plenty of stuff not just the BMS squads but visit other Sims i.e……http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=90
Also YouTubes plenty of schools load up tutorials demo’s, Please Watch:-
*EDIT: A while back this what I wanted to have a Forum of Aviation resources video’s, reading material, military documentaries, online links, pdf’s etc etc etc to download from or use from the BMS Forum.
There should be sections like IFR / NAV Training set out like the Theater TAB is now in each has a section!
Many guys like Geraki, Hor1463 and others wanted this as well, instead of all the repeat posting, bad posts and arguments its all useless information not wanted and also its hard to find things, yes search bar is kool but not when your reading over 1000 posts, right! Who does that?
I had a whole list of topics and studies I was going to add to Forum, but now …:rtfm:… is what is rudely supported here!:mad:
Also some complained making posts upsetting others it all stopped.
Really it is a shame its what this Forum should be about “Aviation and Air Force” oriented like …
i.e.
http://military.discovery.com/
http://www.aviationonlinetraining.net/
So I guess now, Happy Searching!
Although there is plenty good stuff out there, enjoy!
Cheers,
:drink:
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maybe something to add … HUD is only an HELP to fly the jet, but pilot must be able to fly VFR or IFR without it, without being in degraded condition.
Do you think or know whether it is in their training schedule that the real-life pilots have training scenarios where they fly without the HUD?
Like i’ve heard from PPL pilots getting their entire view covered, except for the instruments.
EDIT: Didn’t see the last video -
There is also the Rate 1/2 turn
Based on the same idea as the rate 1 turn, the formula is as follows:
your True airspeed is 300 kts.
300/20 + 7 ( instead of dividing the TAS by 10 we divide it by 20)
(300/20) + 7 = 22 degrees.
TAS = True airspeed.
The airspeed you have on your airspeed indicator is called the Indicated Airspeed ( IAS), which is different from the TAS.
To convert the IAS to TAS you first need to find your CAS ( corrected airspeed)
What is CAS ?
CAS is the airspeed corrected for instrument error ( by error they mean that in the airspeed indicator you have the different rods linked to the needle that have some friction, so there is a slight error on the indication)
The CAS can usually be found in airplane operating handbook, in the section performance there is a table with IAS opposed to CAS, the difference is only of 1 or 2 knots.
When you have CAS you can go to the TAS.
TAS is your airspeed corrected for density altitude and temperature.
A rule of thumb here is that the TAS increases 1.1/2 % for each 1000 ft when you fly below 20 000 ft
and 2% for each 1000 ft when you fly above 20 000 ft.
But in the F-16 you don’t have to do the math when your HUD is working, you can choose to indicate CAS, TAS, GS o just take the info from there when in flight.
Spooky.
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Do you think or know whether it is in their training schedule that the real-life pilots have training scenarios where they fly without the HUD?
Like i’ve heard from PPL pilots getting their entire view covered, except for the instruments.
EDIT: Didn’t see the last videoWhen i did my PPL i had the view covered, for the IFR too, you get o hood on the head and you only see the instruments.
Spooky.
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Do you think or know whether it is in their training schedule that the real-life pilots have training scenarios where they fly without the HUD?
Like i’ve heard from PPL pilots getting their entire view covered, except for the instruments.
EDIT: Didn’t see the last videoPilots do not learn how to fly a plane directly on F-16 … US fly T-6 first then T-38 … French TB-30, then Tucano (no more Tucano now) then Alpha Jet (there are no HUD on French AJet) et…
So yes, for sure, pilots knows how to fly a plane without a HUD.
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@SkyKnight:
Hi all,
Its all on the web (WWW) these days even exam and test manuals/papers you might have to subscribe and pay a small fee here and there but its all online and if you visit squads they have plenty of stuff not just the BMS squads but visit other Sims i.e……http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showforum=90
Also YouTubes plenty of schools load up tutorials demo’s, Please Watch:-
*EDIT: A while back this what I wanted to have a Forum of Aviation resources video’s, reading material, military documentaries, online links, pdf’s etc etc etc to download from or use from the BMS Forum.
There should be sections like IFR / NAV Training set out like the Theater TAB is now in each has a section!
Many guys like Geraki, Hor1463 and others wanted this as well, instead of all the repeat posting, bad posts and arguments its all useless information not wanted and also its hard to find things, yes search bar is kool but not when your reading over 1000 posts, right! Who does that?
I had a whole list of topics and studies I was going to add to Forum, but now …:rtfm:… is what is rudely supported here!:mad:
Also some complained making posts upsetting others it all stopped.
Really it is a shame its what this Forum should be about “Aviation and Air Force” oriented like …
i.e.
http://military.discovery.com/
http://www.aviationonlinetraining.net/
So I guess now, Happy Searching!
Although there is plenty good stuff out there, enjoy!
Cheers,
:drink:
You know if you want to say something you can PM me, we can discuss that over there, but don’t come here to bitch about what you like or don’t like, i’m not a big fan of yours that’s something i don’t hide, so please, stick to the subject or create a new thread where you can complain, and yes read the F manual rules, because once you read it, the questions you will ask will make sense.
You mix up things, F-16.net is not the same as BMS …
Spooky.
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Just like I said in that post another useless post with your poor attitude ^^^^^ that says it all!:(
Just stopped by to offer a helping hand!
Cheers,
:drink:
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@SkyKnight:
Just like I said in that post another useless post with your poor attitude ^^^^^ that says it all!:(
Just stopped by to offer a helping hand!
Cheers,
:drink:
I have a very poor attitude towards you that’s right, but you earned it.
You can help out and post links about IFR, but if you have something to say to me, then PM me, no need to turn around and edit your posts.
Spooky.
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Thank you for the information, Spooky. I had a closer look at the SIDs for South Korea and i think i get the basic concept except for the exit points. Why do some exit points have a triangle as symbol and others have a star?
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Thank you for the information, Spooky. I had a closer look at the SIDs for South Korea and i think i get the basic concept except for the exit points. Why do some exit points have a triangle as symbol and others have a star?
This is a very good question buddy,
The Triangle symbol can have different meanings depending on the country the chart is from, but when i look at the SID plate, the empty triangle is a non compulsory reporting point.
When you fly IFR you have points along a pre-defined route, when you see an empty triangle it means you don’t have to report to the controller that you are over that point.
If you see a filled triangle, black, it means you have to report when you are at that point.
But any time, the controller can ask you to report over any report point, compulsory or not.
Now the star is your IAF, initial approach fix, this is why you see written under it, IAF R090 DME 20.
Initial approach fix, is the point where your instrument approach starts.
If you look on the SID it actually makes sense since at the IAF you start to descend from 10 000 ft to 8000 towards TOLCI.
Look also that the IAf can be the reference point for a hold.
Spooky.
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Are you referring to the F-18 pilot who flew an F-16 and stated that the F-18 HUD is IFR rated and the one of the F-16 is not ?
I don’t know why the F-16 HUD isn’t IFR rated but, yes, the HUD in the F/A-18 it is IFR rated and is considered the primary IFR instrument. If you lose your HUD, you are considered “partial panel”. You can bring the HUD repeater up on either the left or right display to reference it but if you lose your displays, you have to go to your standby instruments. That is a pretty rare occurance though.
HUD cripple = Hornet pilot.
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I don’t know why the F-16 HUD isn’t IFR rated but, yes, the HUD in the F/A-18 it is IFR rated and is considered the primary IFR instrument. If you lose your HUD, you are considered “partial panel”. You can bring the HUD repeater up on either the left or right display to reference it but if you lose your displays, you have to go to your standby instruments. That is a pretty rare occurance though.
HUD cripple = Hornet pilot.
I don’t know if in the F-16 you loose the HUD if you can bring it up the HUD repeater on the MFD’s … maybe this is why it is not rated IFR in the F-16. My only experience is BMS on the F-16, i remember i lost the HUD and when bringing up the HUD page on the MFD i couldn’t, looks like it does not work independently in the F-16.
I’m not sure if what i said makes any sense actually but would be nice know why.
I think i will dig my nose in the semper viper articles in the code one magazine to find out, there is an article about the HUD there and for some reason it says it is a primary flight reference …maybe only for VFR ?
When you fly IFR do you use your HUD only or do you cross check with analog instruments ?
HUD cripple …looool, that’s a good one.
Thanks a lot for your input, and thanks for your service in the Marine Corps.
Spooky.
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Spooky, i tried to figure out the approach phase today, only to discover that this seems way more complicated than a departure! One thing i don’t get is the lighting system. Kunsan, as i understand it, has a ALSF-1 system with a 1.000 foot Decision bar. The approach chart tells me that the minimum visibility for an ILS-approach for Kunsan is 200-800m and the decision height is 210 MSL. So do i have to be at or above 210 MSL when i reach the decision bar? And how do i check the minimum visibility. I tried to google this and one “arcane” answer was that minimum visibility can be determined by trying to visualize the Decision bar from the middle Marker. Is this correct?
Thank you, your help is really appreciated. This is some interesting stuff and i can already see myself getting shot down by anybody and their grandma because i’ve been focusing on my appraoch charts:shock:
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Been over a year since I had this course, but iirc, one of the IFR-requirements is that the instrument must have at least 2 independent systems, and preferably 3 for error elimination, providing data directly to the instrument.
As the HUD is a system that only shows information received from other instruments, instead of being a system on its own, could that be why it isn’t IFR-approved?
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Hyphara,
It’s refreshing to see people interested in this. You are making it harder than it really is. Minimums, whether they are take off or landing mins, are based solely upon visibility. And although you can estimate the visibility with ground references, in RL the official visibility usually comes from the tower. In BMS you don’t have that option. The best we have is the ATIS (which is printed out on Falcas WDP) and this is old weather.So in BMS, if you can see enough to taxi and track straight down the runway, you take off. For landing out of an ILS, if you see the runway at or above the DH, and are in position to land, you land. Otherwise, you immediately execute a missed approach.
So even though visibility is the controlling factor for minimums, all you need to really do is see the runway. Hope this helps.
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The lighting system for an approach tells you what kind of approach you can have on the runway, for example an ILS cat 3 will have a runway with different lighting than a runway with only CAT 1 and CAT 2.
Your decision height is 210 feet, this means that when you are at 210 feet and at the distance required, 2 DME in that case, from the runway, if you have no visual on the runway or runway lighting,or runway markings you have to overshoot. If your decision height is 210, calculate your descent so you reach 210 ft before 2 DME, so you are stabilized when you are at 2 DME and ready to react.
But this is not mandatory but strongly recommended, the visibility limits you see are the minimums for the type of approach you shoot, and as CHussey said, the ATIS is usually the way you get the weather information.
The ATIS gives you weather information at the airport, 5nm from the center of the runway, visibility is given to you in terms of RVR. Maybe one day this will all be implemented in BMS but for now the only way for you to know the weather and visibility is by looking in your weather settings in the BMS menu.
Yes shooting an approach is not easy, i remember my first approach was not easy because i had to do a hold before that and during the hold i had to brief mt approach, so i had to keep an eye on my hold ( NDB hold … gosh hate NDB) and then listen to the comms and then brief it and execute it and …yes at night it’s even more fun.
But with practice you will get there.
try to respect the altitudes given on the chart with an max error of 200 ft … and on final your error should be 0 ft. Those are flight test standards, but they are justified.
Spooky.
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Been over a year since I had this course, but iirc, one of the IFR-requirements is that the instrument must have at least 2 independent systems, and preferably 3 for error elimination, providing data directly to the instrument.
As the HUD is a system that only shows information received from other instruments, instead of being a system on its own, could that be why it isn’t IFR-approved?
Still didn’t have time to look into semper viper, but this week-end i will, but good guess :), but still curious why the F/A-18 has his HUD approved for IFR.
Spooky.
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Good thing that NDB approaches are rapidly being replaced with GPS approaches, eh?
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@Spooky
Why you hate NDB holdings? Just curiosity…
Aren’t they easier than TCN stations referenced holding fixes for holding?
Another question is: What means “Positive Climb” that can be eard frequently in civil aviation (don’t know about military)?
What are they saying with this call?
Does it means only lift off?Thanks.