Different Air to Air fighting modes? Need help
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i personally never use radar in WVR/Dogfight mode…if you set your Aim9s to bore mode and use the HMCS you can lock a bandit just by looking at him (be sure to uncage once you’ve got lock), without giving him any RWR warning (as mentioned before).
And i would recommend using the A-A master mode (instead of DGFT mode) to set the Aim9s to bore (the default mode is slave, i believe), and do this long before there’s any chance of combat (there’s no time to switch from slave to bore when you’re already in the middle of a fight!)…because DGFT master mode will automatically use the Aim9 coolant, and the coolant is limited (only about an hours worth).
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(there’s no time to switch from slave to bore when you’re already in the middle of a fight!)…
i disagree. When first entering DGFT mode the radar is “stand by”. The missile can’t be slaved to a “stand by” FCR, therefore, it must be in BORE or work as if it’s in BORE mode. Unless, somebody tells me that the winder does not growl, uncage, or lock when it’s in slave mode and the FCR is on “stand by”.
Every thing is done HOTAS including silence the radar.
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i disagree. When first entering DGFT mode the radar is “stand by”. The missile can’t be slaved to a “stand by” FCR, therefore, it must be in BORE or work as if it’s in BORE mode.
It is in slave mode, the fact that the FCR is not tracking something (so there’s nothing to slave to) is irrelevant. Just go in the sim, switch to dogfight and watch the SMS where it says SLAVE.
Unless, somebody tells me that the winder does not growl, uncage, or lock when it’s in slave mode and the FCR is on “stand by”.
Again, irrelevant. The AIM-9 does not work like the AIM-120, in that it gets no data from the radar. To track a target it just needs to be in the seeker’s FOV (the diamond) and the missile be uncaged. What slave mode does is make the seeker follow the radar LOS, so locking up a target means the AIM-9 seeker is automatically looking at it and you just need to uncage. But it works perfectly fine without tracking a target or with the FCR on standby as well, the difference is the seeker will be looking straight ahead and you have to maneuver to get the target in its FOV.
In simpler words, slave or bore mode for the heaters only affects where the seeker head will be looking. The seeker actually tracking a target though is completely independent from radar operation and is all done by the missile itself.
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I disagree.
It is in slave mode, the fact that the FCR is not tracking something (so there’s nothing to slave to) is irrelevant
It’s very much relevant when talking about using HOTAS to cammand weapon system.
“slave mode”/“bore mode” is irrelevevant. I’ve never changed a heater to “bore mode” to use the heater diamond as a bore sight when the FCR is stand-by.
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there’s no time to switch from slave to bore when you’re already in the middle of a fight!
Cursor/Enable switch. I think. It switches from slave to bore with the AIM120 so I can only assume it does the same with the AIM9. I’m typically not around by the time engagements become WVR.
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@RPG:
Yeah what bug?, come on spit it out!, we want to know!!!..…I love heaters, up close dogfighting with the HMCS…awesome!, never noticed any bug though??
The seeker is only slaved when the radar has lock and the seaker is caged. (that’s the way it was in F4AF)
In BMS, if the seaker is uncaged and lock on a target and then the radar is locked on a different target the heater diamond will move to the radar locked target. However, when fired, the heater will track the target that was orginally lock by the seeker. The missile hits the a/c without the diamond.
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I disagree.
You don’t get to disagree, that’s the way it works. Not my opinion, fact. When the heater is in SLAVE mode, it is in SLAVE mode, whether you agree or not.
It’s very much relevant when talking about using HOTAS to cammand weapon system.
It’s irrelevant as in, the heater can be in SLAVE mode but not slaved to anything. It can also be in BORE mode, but not aligned with the boresight. What mode the missile is in, is described by… what mode it is in, not the way you use it. When the SMS says SLAVE, then its in SLAVE mode, simple as that. I can also navigate while in AG master mode, that does not mean I am automatically in NAV mode.
“slave mode”/“bore mode” is irrelevevant. I’ve never changed a heater to “bore mode” to use the heater diamond as a bore sight when the FCR is stand-by.
First of all you don’t use the diamond as a boresight, the diamond (seeker head) is aligned with the missile’s boresight. And yes, you don’t need to switch to BORE, what’s your point? Whenever the seeker is caged and not commanded to move (FCR, JHMCS) it is always aligned with the boresight. That does not mean it is in BORE mode. A mode is a software profile of the missile that makes it behave a certain way, much like many other avionics related “modes”, and is only changeable through the SMS or the enable switch. Just because the missile might be doing one thing that might be common to another mode, it does not mean it has magically changed to that mode.
Cursor/Enable switch. I think. It switches from slave to bore with the AIM120 so I can only assume it does the same with the AIM9. I’m typically not around by the time engagements become WVR.
It does do the same with AIM-9, as long as it is depressed it switches from SLAVE to BORE if SLAVE was previously selected, or from BORE to SLAVE if BORE was previously selected.
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You don’t get to disagree, that’s the way it works. Not my opinion, fact. When the heater is in SLAVE mode, it is in SLAVE mode, whether you agree or not.
LOL,
I disagree. The Heater has no SLAVE mode. When slaved the a/c tells the seeker to look in a dirrection. The heater does not know that the MFD says “SLAVE” or “BORE”.From what I see the heater has a few states.
SPOT/SCAN (not sure if that is internal)
CAGED it can be SLAVED to radar. If not it looks stright a head for BORE sighting.
UNCAGED When uncaged it can track a heat sorce or the a/c can slaves it to HMS until it lock on a heat sorce. (not sure about BMS HMS)The “BORE” option on the MFD should suspends the a/c from slaving the seeker and I don’t know why anyone would use it. It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
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The Heater has no SLAVE mode. When slaved the a/c tells the seeker to look in a dirrection. The heater does not know that the MFD says “SLAVE” or “BORE”.
The heater knows what the MFD says because the aircraft is telling it what to do. Whether this is done internally by the heater or the SMS is again irrelevant, what matters is that the heater has a BORE mode and a SLAVE mode.
SPOT/SCAN (not sure if that is internal)
SPOT/SCAN are different functions from BORE/SLAVE, not sure why you bring those up. The heater can be configured as SPOT-BORE, SCAN-SLAVE or any combination.
CAGED it can be SLAVED to radar. If not it looks stright a head for BORE sighting.
Uhm… no. What it does caged or uncaged depends on if its in BORE or SLAVE and whether there is a target tracked by the FCR. And again, just because it looks along its boresight does not mean its in BORE mode.
UNCAGED When uncaged it can track a heat sorce or the a/c can slaves it to HMS until it lock on a heat sorce. (not sure about BMS HMS)
No. It needs to be in BORE to follow the JHMCS, caged or uncaged is irrelevant.
The “BORE” option on the MFD should suspends the a/c from slaving the seeker and I don’t know why anyone would use it.
Again, no. The BORE option allows it to be slaved to the JHMCS.
It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
Yes it is.
It seems to me you have quite a bit of reading to do before you can disagree again.
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The heater knows what the MFD says because the aircraft is telling it what to do. Whether this is done internally by the heater or the SMS is again irrelevant, what matters is that the heater has a BORE mode and a SLAVE mode.
Just like dumb bomb know what to do?..…they have CCIP mode and CCRP mode because thats what it says on the MFD. Would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
SPOT/SCAN are different functions from BORE/SLAVE, not sure why you bring those up. The heater can be configured as SPOT-BORE, SCAN-SLAVE or any combination.
just to point out how simple the heater logic is. 120 is very complex.
No. It needs to be in BORE to follow the JHMCS, caged or uncaged is irrelevant.
I question if the BMS model is r/l and would request r/l refferrance if I cared. I have not seen a need for 9X or JHMCS in BMS combat. (not many archer inbounds)
F4AF modeled a system when the heater saw a heat source it would auto lock because it was already uncaged. You didn’t have to hold the sight on the taget and uncage. However, I did see how the heater implementation to the JHMCS and the radar immplimention are similar. Maybe to keep the pilot from being confused. The BMS models favors locking the FCR with the JHMCS and firing the heater slaved to FCR. IIRC I played with a little a while back.
It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
Yes it is.
The BMS HOTAS Slave/Bore button is modeled as momentary switch. It’s not a toggle or latch or cycle modes.
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Just like dumb bomb know what to do?..…they have CCIP mode and CCRP mode because thats what it says on the MFD. Would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
Not the same thing. Bombs always work the same way. They just drop. Changing bombing modes only affects the way you as the pilot will deliver them.
Heaters on the other hand can work in different ways, and changing the SMS settings actually affects how they work. They behave according to the mode they are set at.
I question if the BMS model is r/l and would request r/l refferrance if I cared.
Sort of any undiscovered bugs, you shouldn’t even need to ask that.
F4AF modeled a system when the heater saw a heat source it would auto lock because it was already uncaged. You didn’t have to hold the sight on the taget and uncage. However, I did see how the heater implementation to the JHMCS and the radar immplimention are similar. Maybe to keep the pilot from being confused. The BMS models favors locking the FCR with the JHMCS and firing the heater slaved to FCR. IIRC I played with a little a while back.
You don’t need the FCR to use the JHMCS. The procedure is this: point the JHMCS at the target, switch the heater to BORE mode (either through the MFD or by pressing the enable switch) so that the heater diamond is now on the target, and uncage to lock. You can also do it in conjunction with the FCR but its not necessary.
The BMS HOTAS Slave/Bore button is modeled as momentary switch. It’s not a toggle or latch or cycle modes.
It toggles between the modes as long as its depressed, like IRL. Just a play on words here, it does toggle but not latch.
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again, would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
Not the same thing. Bombs always work the same way. They just drop. Changing bombing modes only affects the way you as the pilot will deliver them.
Heaters on the other hand can work in different ways, and changing the SMS settings actually affects how they work. They behave according to the mode they are set at.
Heaters just fly off the rail. The targeting system is what is changes.
Sort of any undiscovered bugs, you shouldn’t even need to ask that.
I didn’t ask. I don’t care. Wouldn’t call it a bug. Gas’s banner may apply here. <shrug>> You don’t need the FCR to use the JHMCS. The procedure is this: point the JHMCS at the target, switch the heater to BORE mode (either through the MFD or by pressing the enable switch) so that the heater diamond is now on the target, and uncage to lock. You can also do it in conjunction with the FCR but its not necessary
I never said the FCR was needed to use the JMCS.
It toggles between the modes as long as its depressed, like IRL. Just a play on words here, it does toggle but not latch.
yes a toggle can be a latch or momentary switch. The slave/bore switch is button not toggle.</shrug>
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Slave means it’s slaved to the FCR and the radar determines the target, bore means the seeker on the Aim9 itself (possibly aided by the HMCS, but you can use bore without the HMCS also) determines the target…this isn’t complicated guys. lol
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I’m typically not around by the time engagements become WVR.
Jinro my man! It’s weird buddy…you seem like a pretty smart guy (you’ve certainly posted some excellent advice, many times, here on this forum), but you’re often talking about being shot down, or having problems with enemy jammers etc…and i don’t get it! I wish i could see what you’re doing, because i can’t say (for the most part) i have the same problems…and from what it sounds like, you’re more or less using the same tactics as i use! It must just be something like not getting the radar pointed at the bandit(s) quick enough, maybe?..because from what i’ve read about your tactics you should be kicking ass up there!
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First time anybody complimented me on my lousy flying lol
Problems with jammers I’ve figured out thanks to some folks on the forum. Worked well until I tried against veteran MiGs, so I’m starting from the bottom and working my way up again. That particular instance my radar would not hold a lock so I pumped, then when reengaging I couldn’t lock them up fast enough to get a shot off. I know exactly how they did it–I’ve done it myself: force the bandit to go defensive, and if the picture is clear, keep pressing until they try to reengage and when they do, let a slammer fly. That’s the only way I manage to take out that MiG25 in the AMRAAM training TE.
So yeah, not being able to get the radar pointed in time–or getting into a WVR furball where I can’t tell who’s who and next thing I know there’s a maddog AA-12 inbound. There’s a way to make that slewing cursor more sensitive right? Might make TGP operation a bit twitchy though.
Speaking of radar and tactics, how is it that you lock up and shoot at two different targets at the same time? I’ve read the documentation on that but haven’t been successful in implementing it.
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First time anybody complimented me on my lousy flying lol
Problems with jammers I’ve figured out thanks to some folks on the forum. Worked well until I tried against veteran MiGs, so I’m starting from the bottom and working my way up again. That particular instance my radar would not hold a lock so I pumped, then when reengaging I couldn’t lock them up fast enough to get a shot off. I know exactly how they did it–I’ve done it myself: force the bandit to go defensive, and if the picture is clear, keep pressing until they try to reengage and when they do, let a slammer fly. That’s the only way I manage to take out that MiG25 in the AMRAAM training TE.
So yeah, not being able to get the radar pointed in time–or getting into a WVR furball where I can’t tell who’s who and next thing I know there’s a maddog AA-12 inbound. There’s a way to make that slewing cursor more sensitive right? Might make TGP operation a bit twitchy though.
Speaking of radar and tactics, how is it that you lock up and shoot at two different targets at the same time? I’ve read the documentation on that but haven’t been successful in implementing it.
I’ve never been able to fire 2 AMRAAMs simultaneously.
Usually i give ‘weapons free’ or ‘attack targets’ (usually the wingmen ask to engage), and keep an eye on the (i’m always in RWS with radar still scanning, never full STT radar lock) FCR to see if the #2bandit is still going hostile…if he does, i quickly bug (not lock) #2 up after my first launch goes ‘pitbull’ and launch at #2…but quite often one of my wingmen has shot at #2 already and he’s going defensive along with #1.
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I’m usually notching or pumping by the time my missile goes pitbull; when I check the debrief I’m glad I did. I always see 2-4 AA-12s launched at me but denied them the opportunity to track me. STT mode gets me flustered–sometimes it automatically goes from RWS to STT and wont’ let me go to SAM mode.
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I’m usually notching or pumping by the time my missile goes pitbull; when I check the debrief I’m glad I did. I always see 2-4 AA-12s launched at me but denied them the opportunity to track me. STT mode gets me flustered–sometimes it automatically goes from RWS to STT and wont’ let me go to SAM mode.
2-4 AA-12s eh? Hmm….are you launching at max range?..Are you making sure you’re higher than the bandit(s), or climbing if you’re not?. If you get higher you can have first launch and a launch with better energy. Are you checking with AWACS every few minutes for threats? If bandits get within 50 miles or less you should be climbing and tracking them on your FCR (or at least have FCR pointed at the area they’re coming from). I usually get 2500-5000ft above them.
Sometimes i get shot at…but quite often i get a shot off early enough that the bandit(s) has to go defensive before his shot goes autonomous, so his shot misses (beaming and chaff help of course).
If you do get an M in the RWR, then you’ve got to (all at once): dump chaff, hit burner to get to corner speed, get on the beam, and get your eyes out of the cockpit to watch for that missile…but i find it rarely gets to this point…usually once i’m on the beam and dumping chaff (and his shot doesn’t have that much energy because i was higher), this is all i need to do…and the M and/or the 27/29 disappears from the RWR and i’ve evaded his shot. No heavy Gs necessary.
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This is the last thing I’m going to say on this matter because you seem happier defending your incomplete knowledge of the systems involved than to actually educate yourself. Feel free after this to go back to describing and using BMS based on what you know from F4AF which is completely different. So here goes.
again, would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
If you don’t want to say that the heater has a BORE and SLAVE mode, you can say that the SMS has a BORE and SLAVE mode for heater employment. So based on that, when you enter dogfight, you are in SLAVE mode as indicated on the SMS. Not BORE as you said. End of story.
My whole point is that you need to be precise when describing avionics and weapons functions, esp answering a question asked by a newcomer who probably doesn’t know much. When a new guy asks you “how do I get the seeker in BORE mode?”, based on what you said your answer would probably be “TMS down to unlock the FCR target”; which is wrong. The correct answer is “press the SLAVE OSB so it changes to BORE”. Why? Because the guy that asked it might not want the missile to look down its boresight, he might want it in BORE mode so he can use it with the JHMCS.
Heaters just fly off the rail. The targeting system is what is changes.
Exactly. They don’t just fly off the rail. They also track targets. The targeting system is part of the missile.
I never said the FCR was needed to use the JMCS.
You certainly implied it by saying that its the method that BMS “favors”, which is just not true. Both work equally well. And the fact that you obviously have no idea what BORE mode is for (as you said yourself), shows that you don’t know how to use the JHMCS without the FCR.
yes a toggle can be a latch or momentary switch.
So we agree that this is a momentary toggle switch.
Slave means it’s slaved to the FCR and the radar determines the target, bore means the seeker on the Aim9 itself (possibly aided by the HMCS, but you can use bore without the HMCS also) determines the target…this isn’t complicated guys. lol
You can also use it in SLAVE mode without the FCR. It is always the seeker that determines the target. BORE and SLAVE just change where the seeker will be looking for the target. The FCR does not pass any target information to the AIM-9 like it does with the AIM-120, SLAVE mode just makes the AIM-9 seeker follow the FCR LOS if there is a target locked.