AAR from the basket.
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Hello Forum.
Well, if refuelling from the boom was difficult to master, the hose / basket is at a different challenge level altogether.
It’s hard to stop those pilot induced oscillations once they start.
Other than Mav jp, has anybody cracked it yet?
Also, I was flying with an AI wingman and try as he might, he couldn’t manage it either. Now, that’s very strange.!!
Bayonet
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
Hello Forum.
Well, if refuelling from the boom was difficult to master, the hose / basket is at a different challenge level altogether.
It’s hard to stop those pilot induced oscillations once they start.
Other than Mav jp, has anybody cracked it yet?
Also, I was flying with an AI wingman and try as he might, he couldn’t manage it either. Now, that’s very strange.!!
Bayonet
Not me! Heck, ask Brother Ronin. I sucked (pun somewhat intended) with the boom.
It IS strange your AI wingie is having troubles . We tested quite a bit with both KA-6 and the “KF-18” and not once did the AI have problems -
@drtbkj
Connect in a continuous approach phase. Don’t stop in front of thr basket. -
@Bayonet it sure is something to add to the plate of learning but it is achievable I’ve managed to do it in the rsaf version
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Fly an excellent formation with the tanker initially and try not to look directly the basket.
Requires a lot of practice and patience. F18 is even more difficult as it’s not so stable as the Mirage.
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Yes, after I failed repeatedly to catch the basket, I decided to watch the AI show me how it’s done.
I sat off his right wing for about five minutes .
He went back and forward narrowly missing to connect.Regards,
Bayonet.
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I was flying the block 52 RSAF where, as you know, the probe is out of the immediate eye line.
Turning the head to see it causes one to lose coordination with the basket.
In fairness, perhaps there’s no need to check the probe, it’s not going anywhere.
Especially not into the basketRegards,
Bayonet.
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
Yes, after I failed repeatedly to catch the basket, I decided to watch the AI show me how it’s done.
I sat off his right wing for about five minutes .
He went back and forward narrowly missing to connect.Regards,
Bayonet.
HHHmmm. Which jet and which Theater?
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…try not to look directly the basket.
THIS Is key! Do NOT Look at the basket. Fly formation with the Tanker’s wingtip or the pod. But DO NOT stare at the basket!! Keep it in your peripheral vision and glance at it from time to time, but staring at it will cause you to chase it and end up oscillating to catch it.
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
Yes, after I failed repeatedly to catch the basket, I decided to watch the AI show me how it’s done.
I sat off his right wing for about five minutes .
He went back and forward narrowly missing to connect.Regards,
Bayonet.
Bayonet, Today we tested the 52 CFT in KTO and were unable to repro your issue. Both human pilots and both AI tanked via the probe with no problems .I’m not sure what to suggest. This is not a jet that we’ve “tweaked” yet, especially in KTO, so the files should be the same.
And Jolly, excellent advise! -
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@drtbkj I’m flying the Block 52 RSAF out of Lushnje Albania, Balkans Theatre.
No particular reason for that airbase, just random selection.I’ll set up a TE in the KTO and see what happens.
I don’t suppose the call to the tanker makes a difference…Individual or Element refuelling requested??
Thanks for your help,
Bayonet.
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
@drtbkj I’m flying the Block 52 RSAF out of Lushnje Albania, Balkans Theatre.
No particular reason for that airbase, just random selection.I’ll set up a TE in the KTO and see what happens.
I don’t suppose the call to the tanker makes a difference…Individual or Element refuelling requested??
Thanks for your help,
Bayonet.
Bayonet, Our testing session was specifically to repro your problem. So, we were using your jet specifically, and using both the KDC-10 and “KF-18” as tankers. This was before your last post, so we didn’t know which theater. We tested in KTO, OFMKTO, and Nevada.(And as always thanks to Eddie for his technical Sierra Hotel-ness) BTW, your jet will be in future OFMKTO’s and others.
I’m really curious about how your TE test in KTO goes, because both of us were testing and we simply could not reproduce your problem, human or AI.
We have seen , one example being the A-4, that probe position on the model can be a factor in this problem. Eddie is still working on the A-4, in fact. But, that just makes this stranger, as the 52CFT files are working for us. Also, after this post I compared the acdatas file on your jet in Balkans and OFMKTO and didn’t see any differences in the Air to Air Refuelling values
Also, you asked about whether you have have to call the tanker to “start the process”. I’m still testing that but my initial impression is I don’t think so. I will have more info on that later -
@drtbkj Huge thanks for all your efforts on this one.
Real life has delayed my KTO experiment until the weekend.
I’ll send a Sit Rep asap.BTW, the tanker I used is the C-130, again for no other reason than I just wanted to look at it.
The last time I saw a C-130 up close was at 15,000 ft standing on the edge of the ramp prior to stepping off.Regards,
Bayonet.
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
@drtbkj Huge thanks for all your efforts on this one.
Real life has delayed my KTO experiment until the weekend.
I’ll send a Sit Rep asap.BTW, the tanker I used is the C-130, again for no other reason than I just wanted to look at it.
The last time I saw a C-130 up close was at 15,000 ft standing on the edge of the ramp prior to stepping off.Regards,
Bayonet.
Bayonet, you are very welcome. We had previously tested the KC-130 in stock KTO (and elsewhere) with EF2000 ,av8,and F18c. We had found issues with the KDC-130 regarding the hose placement, and there could also be an issue with the tanker “not being fast enough”. We’ll test the 130 with your jet in KTO. In the meantime, you can also try with the KDC-10( if that’s in KTO) or the KA-6 and/or “KF-18” in OFMKTO. That’s where we tested with your jet.
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Some observations from the stock TE taking place in KTO, Long Travel: The tanker is an KC-135R. I refueled my Deep Strike flight first and then hung out at the tanker to observe the next flights. It was first a Mirage 2000 flight, then a flight of F-18Cs so a lot of basket action.
I noticed that the tanker speeds up, from the 300 kts for us in F-16s, to 310-315 for the Mirages. And I was a bit surprised that they did not refuel from both the left and right basked at the same time. Only clearance to refuel on the right one. Has anyone else noticed that - could it be a Mirage thing ?
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@jayb said in AAR from the basket.:
Some observations from the stock TE taking place in KTO, Long Travel: The tanker is an KC-135R. I refueled my Deep Strike flight first and then hung out at the tanker to observe the next flights. It was first a Mirage 2000 flight, then a flight of F-18Cs so a lot of basket action.
I noticed that the tanker speeds up, from the 300 kts for us in F-16s, to 310-315 for the Mirages. And I was a bit surprised that they did not refuel from both the left and right basked at the same time. Only clearance to refuel on the right one. Has anyone else noticed that - could it be a Mirage thing ?
Hi, Jayb, I’m not sure but my initial thought it’s more a tanker thing. The made it’s built in BMS, I mean.
Yes, we have noticed the differing speeds( it’s about 310kt in the F18C). In fact, as mentioned, we’re wondering if that could be part of
Bayonet’s issue -
Hi @drtbkj
I’m happy to report that my wingman had no difficulty connecting with the basket in the KTO.
Same jet and tanker as in the Balkans scenario.
Even though I hadn’t managed to refuel (more practise needed) I called “Done Refuelling” to let him in.
He moved in promptly and it was enjoyable to sit on his wing and watch the procedure.
Still unsure what’s happening in the Balkans.
Thanks again for your help,
Bayonet.
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@Bayonet said in AAR from the basket.:
Hi @drtbkj
I’m happy to report that my wingman had no difficulty connecting with the basket in the KTO.
Same jet and tanker as in the Balkans scenario.
Even though I hadn’t managed to refuel (more practise needed) I called “Done Refuelling” to let him in.
He moved in promptly and it was enjoyable to sit on his wing and watch the procedure.
Still unsure what’s happening in the Balkans.
Thanks again for your help,
Bayonet.
Hi, there. We’re glad things are working now. The bottom line is that if the AI is tanking, the files are right. So, in Balkans we think the issue is tanker drogue position and/or tanker speed with the KC-130. I haven’t been in Balkans in awhile, but do see a KDC-10 file in it’s acdata. Why don’t you try a TE with that tanker and your jet? If your AI works there, then it’s very likely that it’s a Balkans KC-130 issue.