Falcon BMS 4.37 SIM MODE Thoughts
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@Snake122 - not F4Radar…your own FCR. And AVMS.
You should be able to tell from your own radar display if your shot tracked to intercept or not - at least for an AMRAAM, a heater wouldn’t be possible (even in RL), but the ROE boils down to if you took a valid shot or not - and that you can get from AVMS review.
Sort of the more cool way (particularly for a VFS), in that it requires after-action with participants in MP…and/or review of your own AVMS and other players. It also forces/trains you to pay more attention to what is happening in realtime.
Which brings up another point - if you are really “training” (which is what the "“T” in “CATM” stands for), you are training to a set of rules which describe/dictate a valid vs invalid shot…and that is really what matters. Hit vs miss is a bit secondary, as a valid shot is the one with the higher probability of intercept. I haven’t RTFM to see if applicable A/A Training Rules are included in the BMS documents currently, but it’s sounding like they need to be if they aren’t. Would certainly add something (very) constructive to MP.
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@Tomcatter31 I have noticed that the AI defends when necessary
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my bad…there is no kill tone but I’m implementing dead tone as too big explosion sound so if you fly near dead man hit you hear dead sound too…I’ll try fix it
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@AviationPlus
I have noticed that the AI defends when necessaryThey probably can’t tell the difference between the invisible and (mostly) harmless CATM coming at them vs. live missiles, I suppose.
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@chihirobelmo That makes sense then. There were a few times when we were doing BVR testing but after we shot we did not turn cold. Turned out we both heard the tone we were still at least 10 miles away from one another. Glad to do some testing and give feedback. Great work either way
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@falcon4 The CATM missile still gives a missile spike so I think that is why
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@falcon4 - that actually makes all the sense in the world, given that: 1) you wouldn’t carry CATM into combat; and 2) the AI would have to be modified to know your load out and act differently…HUGE ask!
So red AI bogeys are going to continue to act as they always have - which is why CATM are really only useful in MP with friendly, cooperative targets…just like in RL.
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Yeah, it’s actually a really simple but clever trick. By shooting invisible, (mostly) harmless missiles you get perfect simulation of what an actual missile would do and the AI responds as if it got shot at.
Regarding CATMs into combat, I’ve seen pictures of Turkish Vipers with CATMs and a live 9M or two. I guess it is due to the proximity and tension with Greece. That really puts some extra pressure on the pilot to make sure he’s doing all the right things.
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@chihirobelmo Also if possible enable IFF Interrogations for Blk 30/32 aggressors and adding block 40/42 aggressors. Totally fine if unable
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if i fire at a F16 with my gun in SIM mode. will it receive tone warning?
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@AviationPlus - actually it’s your radar, and not the CATM. Or at least that’s the way it SHOULD be.
A CATM-9X or CATM-9 is passive, forex. And a CATM-120 shouldn’t ever be going active, but your radar should still be doing it’s thing in support.
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@falcon4 - that actually may depend on the size of the AOR and employment of an “intimidation” factor. A bogey has no way to determine if your load out is CATM or hot, and the AOR may be small enough that tactics/ROE are not going to allow you take a shot longer than an AIM-9 will fly - but seeing a jet loaded with “AIM-120” could make a bogey standoff outside of that stick.
You don’t have to kill the bogey if you can get him to turn around and simply deny him his mission - this is called a “soft kill”. Took me a few years to get used to the idea, but it’s a genuine tactic.
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@JOKER_duke - I hope not…
When I was down at Navy Kings with the Training Command, the T-2’s had a laser tag system for A/A gunnery training…which I thought was a really cool idea. You “gunned” an opponent with your laser and a detector on the other jet would register the “hit”. If you scored one.
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@Stevie We used similar systems in the army. Pressure sensor on the rifle’s muzzle connected to a laser. Sensors on vests and helmets. System also simulated injury to some degree, so if you e.g. was hit in the arm you wouldn’t be allowed to fire but could still move. It was not without its flaws, but very useful training aid.
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@falcon4 said in Falcon BMS 4.37 SIM MODE Thoughts:
Yeah, it’s actually a really simple but clever trick. By shooting invisible, (mostly) harmless missiles you get perfect simulation of what an actual missile would do and the AI responds as if it got shot at.
That makes sense, but what happens when the AI gets ‘hit’ by this invisible missile and I assume not damaged? Does he continue to engage after that? I imagine it’s like Stevie said that the CATM is only really useful with multiplayer, but haven’t been able to test it yet.
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@Tomcatter31 - in RL, CATMs are “dumb” stores which only contain the minimum of seeker electronics required to drive aircraft displays.
The only real advantage of using CATMs over using SIM is that in most cases a CATM will allow to go MASTER ARM - ON without fear of actually shooting your friendly target.
The other (main) advantage to loading CATM for training is that they get the actual weight and inertia of the load out up to real numbers so that the pilot can feel/know/learn how his jet is actually going to act at that weight/drag/configuration…which I’m not certain how well is modeled in BMS - particularly the inertial effects. This may be because the jet is so small, or because of my limited OTW display size…hope to see different once my cockpit project is completed.
It should also be noted that in some cases CATM are loaded without CADs installed, so for missiles that would be JETT’d by lighting the motor, they cannot even be JETT’d.
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@Stevie said in Falcon BMS 4.37 SIM MODE Thoughts:
@Tomcatter31 - in RL, CATMs are “dumb” stores which only contain the minimum of seeker electronics required to drive aircraft displays.
The only real advantage of using CATMs over using SIM is that in most cases a CATM will allow to go MASTER ARM - ON without fear of actually shooting your friendly target.
The other (main) advantage to loading CATM for training is that they get the actual weight and inertia of the load out up to real numbers so that the pilot can feel/know/learn how his jet is actually going to act at that weight/drag/configuration…which I’m not certain how well is modeled in BMS - particularly the inertial effects. This may be because the jet is so small, or because of my limited OTW display size…hope to see different once my cockpit project is completed.
It should also be noted that in some cases CATM are loaded without CADs installed, so for missiles that would be JETT’d by lighting the motor, they cannot even be JETT’d.
Thanks, I understand what CATMs are in RL, but I was wondering how it works in BMS. I understand it allows you to fly training missions and set the master arm in SIM. I understand in multiplayer with human pilots on both sides this works. You can take simulated shots and the plane that is hit leaves the area. But what does the AI do when you take these same simulated shots? I assume they haven’t been programmed to leave the area after they take a simulated hit?
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@Tomcatter31 - I would expect AI to behave as if you had taken a real shot.
AI SHOULD be acting in accord with their own RWR and ECM indications, which for the most part are going to be driven by your FCR…and in the case of CATM, your FCR is all they have to work with. Or SHOULD be…
To make them behave otherwise would require a BIG effort from the devs, which honestly, I would not think would be worth the effort.
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@Stevie I assume you are talking about RL I am specifically talking about BMS in which you do get a Missile Spike in BMS with 120s.
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@Stevie said in Falcon BMS 4.37 SIM MODE Thoughts:
@Tomcatter31 - I would expect AI to behave as if you had taken a real shot.
AI SHOULD be acting in accord with their own RWR and ECM indications, which for the most part are going to be driven by your FCR…and in the case of CATM, your FCR is all they have to work with. Or SHOULD be…
To make them behave otherwise would require a BIG effort from the devs, which honestly, I would not think would be worth the effort.
Yeah, I think the idea to be able to fly training missions similar to real life with simulated shots would be interesting, also in single player with AI. But I can indeed imagine that would require a very big effort in AI behavior and indeed is probably not worth the effort. I was just curious when I saw the trailer video that they added the CATM feature and was curious how it works in the sim.