RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.
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Is it a feature that RWR missile inbound warning can go off in my jet for a missile tracking another jet? It has happened to me several times and is confirmed in ACMI that I was not the target of the missile.
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@Icarus this is something we have briefed/debriefed extensively over the past couple of months while we’ve trained BVR at the 6th, against AI. It would seem that the RWR is picking up RF from missiles not necessarily directed at you. Even friendly 120 shots, if within their search area they show up, as expected. A slow beep with an M and Diamond is a searching Fox 3. The M with DIamond and Circle is a Fox 3 actively looking at you. The 60 dollar question is… When do I go defensive or do I ignore one and hope for the best.
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@Icarus - it’s not really a “feature”…it’s just how things may sometimes work. For real.
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Thanks guys. Very helpful. When I said feature I meant as opposed to a bug, so yes working as it should.
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@Icarus said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
Is it a feature that RWR missile inbound warning can go off in my jet for a missile tracking another jet? It has happened to me several times and is confirmed in ACMI that I was not the target of the missile.
I do nor know the current radar beam modeling of the BMS. But if the beamwidth of any kind of radar is modeled, if more than one plane is in the beam of a given radar more RWR can receive the signal.
In RL the SA-2’s RCG beam is 20 degree wide as I can remember. No matter that the fire control radar of the Dvina had only 10x10 deg overlapping zone and the Volkhov only 7x7.
The two antennas scanned much lager area than the overlapping zones.In RL if you just flying into one of the beams from the two the RWR can detect the beam. While the SA-2 needed the target be in the overlapped zone to have both azimuth and elevation data.
These are the wide beam mode zone of the SA-2s. Volkhov had the same as the Desna.
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@molnibalage - it can actually a bit more complex than just this. If you are flying in section, or with multiple others - friend or foe - reflections of radar energy off of one targeted aircraft may cause a spike in another jet’s RWR. This is highly dependent on geometry of the formation, and the aircraft itself…and atmospherics.
In this case, you have to make a determination as to whom is actually targeted…and whom is sensing scatter. And if you can alter your tactics in any way to gain better advantage.
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@Stevie Thats not likely modelled in BMS?? I am trying to get clarification on U2 BMS RWR changes since there is nothing in the documentation I can find that discusses new U2 RWR functioning.
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@Stevie said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
@molnibalage - it can actually a bit more complex than just this. If you are flying in section, or with multiple others - friend or foe - reflections of radar energy off of one targeted aircraft may cause a spike in another jet’s RWR. This is highly dependent on geometry of the formation, and the aircraft itself…and atmospherics.
In this case, you have to make a determination as to whom is actually targeted…and whom is sensing scatter. And if you can alter your tactics in any way to gain better advantage.
What official technical tactical document can I find that validates that claim of signals bouncing between aircraft and activating RWRs?
Because as I understand it, the highest intensity of reflection from an emitter (SA-FCR) to a reflector (aircraft) is in a straight line, what is outside of that, echoes and rebounds, the same RWR systems discriminate it, even from the old and archaic ones. SPO-10 and the slightly more modern SPO-15 in which I worked.
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@Icarus - I’m not completely sure of that…
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@VIPER-0 - I’ve worked on a couple of RWRs myself…and it’s a simple matter of physics, really. And how sensitive the RWR is - an AIM-7 rides to the target on reflected radar energy, forex. So an RWR is certainly subject to sensing bounce effects.
RWRs may also be self-spiked…this happens when the RWR responds to it’s ownship radar…side lobes, TFR or surface reflections, or the wingmans RF emission(s).
If you ever get to do any wingman compatibility testing (I have…) watch for such.
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So, is there any documentation or posts from devs how this new stuff works in U2 and 3? I have looked and found nothing. Is it confirmed that you can get M and tones on RWR from a missile that is tracking another jet in BMS?
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@Icarus said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
So, is there any documentation or posts from devs how this new stuff works in U2 and 3? I have looked and found nothing. Is it confirmed that you can get M and tones on RWR from a missile that is tracking another jet in BMS?
Yes, first hand experience.
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@Stevie said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
@molnibalage - it can actually a bit more complex than just this. If you are flying in section, or with multiple others - friend or foe - reflections of radar energy off of one targeted aircraft may cause a spike in another jet’s RWR. This is highly dependent on geometry of the formation, and the aircraft itself…and atmospherics.
In this case, you have to make a determination as to whom is actually targeted…and whom is sensing scatter. And if you can alter your tactics in any way to gain better advantage.
If two aircraft are so close to each other the a reflection is enough strong, my guess is the distance is so small that in case wide beam mode SA-2 you are in the same beam…
For the more advanced system with 1 deg. pencil beam, the direction of the reflection and their signal strength is a dark zone to me.
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@Stevie said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
@molnibalage - it can actually a bit more complex than just this. If you are flying in section, or with multiple others - friend or foe - reflections of radar energy off of one targeted aircraft may cause a spike in another jet’s RWR. This is highly dependent on geometry of the formation, and the aircraft itself…and atmospherics.
In this case, you have to make a determination as to whom is actually targeted…and whom is sensing scatter. And if you can alter your tactics in any way to gain better advantage.
And one more thing.
I have a feeling that a sidelobe of the own onboard radar of a fighter itself produces far higher beam power than a totally random off beam bounce. -
@molnibalage said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
And one more thing.
I have a feeling that a sidelobe of the own onboard radar of a fighter itself produces far higher beam power than a totally random off beam bounce.Yes - that’s true…and a big problem. Ownship sidelobes, and wingman sidelobes. But again, the sensitivity of your RWR (and a number of other tricks which don’t appear to be considered in BMS) factor greatly. All RWRs are not created equally, and it’s not all about power.
I’ve seen some of the RWRs I’ve worked on get spiked by things that aren’t even weapons systems - particularly in urban areas where there is a loot of multi-path and bounce off of buildings.
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@Stevie said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
@molnibalage said in RWR missile warning for missile tracking another jet.:
And one more thing.
I have a feeling that a sidelobe of the own onboard radar of a fighter itself produces far higher beam power than a totally random off beam bounce.Yes - that’s true…and a big problem. Ownship sidelobes, and wingman sidelobes. But again, the sensitivity of your RWR (and a number of other tricks which don’t appear to be considered in BMS) factor greatly. All RWRs are not created equally, and it’s not all about power.
I’ve seen some of the RWRs I’ve worked on get spiked by things that aren’t even weapons systems - particularly in urban areas where there is a loot of multi-path and bounce off of buildings.
Compared to the Cold War era, today’s environment is a horror for the RWR I guess. There are far more different types of emitters all around the world.