Mainly for Mav-JP - 12 degrees stick axes offset
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Gents, I have tested again
Tested very firmly again, and my stick works straight 12, 3, 6 and 9 o’clock, Just like you would suppose it to work IF you didn’t knew about the 12 degree transducers offset.
Don’t even know if the pilots know that, I would expect NOT, and they just push/pull the stick and the jet react as they would expect it to.
So we might be confused by some smart engineering here
I also guess there is many things in the F-16 we would scratch our head with, just by looking at it and then try to make a conclusion.Just my 2 cents
But I will dig more……me need some answers.
NB. and the 12 degree transducers offset is definitely NOT something you as pilot shall think about.
question. how is your SSC connected to your PC? is it being connected to a cougar PCB, then to the PC as normal?
Gents!
One thing there came into my mind here is:on the real stick base there is 2 x 4 transducers and we as pit builders only use one in the pitch and one in the roll.
It could be that some other pit builders have taken one of the transducers there have the offset calibration and there for they get the pitch/roll mix, and I have taken another one.
(All those transducers work in a mis of each other I think)I am not familiar with the brevity “mis”, are you suggesting that some of the transducers are grossly offset from the others axes and when they are averaged, the result is a 12 degree offset? if so, that seems unlikely to me, as the point of having the 4 transducer pairs is to have quadruple redundancy… and that would provide only dual redundancy.
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Can it be that you got it from an A model? Don´t quote me on that but I think I have read that the rotation was introduced in the C/MLU.
Cheers
Tulkas
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I think Mine is from an A-model, but I also think I remember that I looked into it and the transducers were offset, but not sure, and I will not take mine apart to look
The other questions about redundant of that system, I can guarantee that hose systems is redundant, got it from my friend and he is crew chef on the F-16.
And my Stickbase is connected to 2 SCHAEVITZ ATA-101 ANALOG TRANSDUCER AMPLIFIER
link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHAEVITZ-ATA-101-ANALOG-TRANSDUCER-AMPLIFIER-ATA101-/261315362178?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item3cd79bfd82
And then to the the cougar PCB´s that I have moved into a metal box , so that one wire from my stick base and one wire from my TQS system to that box and the ATA-101@BW, mis = mix
Sorry -
Can it be that you got it from an A model? Don´t quote me on that but I think I have read that the rotation was introduced in the C/MLU.
Cheers
Tulkas
something else to muddy the waters with:
http://www.jetfighters.dk/back/F16sim.htm
at the top, the page notes that
The instructor pilot (IP) had warned me in advance that many pilots have the tendency to pull the stick towards themselves instead of pulling it backwards when they want a pitch-up response from the aircraft, thus resulting in a pitch & left-roll response from the aircraft instead of pitch-only, so I was careful not to do so.
also at the bottom…
Many thanks to Flt.Lt. “SAM”; RDAF F16 solo display pilot, F16 Instructor pilot & Weapons instructor, for all the help and time, making this day the best day of my life so far. He gave me a personalised tour of the base, the squadron he flies in, the aircraft, the hangars and introduced me to some great people.
Also many thanks to Jan (the bastard in the control room), simulator technician and instructor, for his great assistance and support in the simulator.
Also many thanks to ‘LUN’ and the other F16 conversion student pilots for some good words of wisdom and suggestions.
Thanks for the much needed inspiration!
no clue which variant of F-16 this would be simulating and its accuracy, however if the instructor was an RDAF pilot one would expect them to know what they are talking about….
EDIT: further muddying of the waters
Electrical/Force Characteristics
- Standard configuration has a pre-programmed linear response for the pitch and roll axis that spans a DC output range of +0.5 Volts to +4.5Volts
- Center no-load voltage is 2.5 volts
- Forces applied to the grip will translate directly to a linear voltage
- Asymmetric grip displacement mimics actual F-15 Block 52 transducer mechanical movement
that is taken from here: http://aerotronicsllc.com/f16ssc.htm
I am not sure if they are experts or anything though… they only build USAF trainers…
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God find BW, and yes the water gets more muddy.
I guess we need to pull some strings here and get in contact with someone who knows it.
But I think we are close herethe paragraph: Electrical/Force Characteristics
That is how the ATA-101 also works, you adjust it from 0 to 5 v with center of 2,5 V
I have adjusted mine from 0 - 4V with center of 2V then I have a margin to the Max 5V (if I go over 5V I could fry the Cougar pcb, thats why, just safety) -
well iirc the RDAF operate A models?
the aerotronics quote contradicts the supposed RDAF one, but if Tulkas is correct in that this was a later modification, then they could both be correct.
need a source who can corroborate this one way or another for sure.
I reckon if you used the armrest provided, it would be fairly easy to fly the aircraft with axes aligned to the aircraft.
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here is some pictures of the stick base and the 8 transducers + my cougar box.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j8bfobr2vrwlbgg/MRp4zihrpV
Kukki
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
That is smart, but don’t use TARGET, but some might be using it
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Guys, logic that with side stick for pilot it’s easier to pull towards his body doesn’t work here. With center stick, if you right handed, it’s easier to pull diagonally to the right, but has anyone heard of misalignment of stick and a/c axis in a/c with center stick?
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all I can think of the gyroscopic effect from the engine. FLCS doesn’t do that much for roll. So Jp would have to model 12* stick offset and gyroscopic effect from the engine pitch changes……if true. If true…leave it alone, imo.
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
Nice info. I will check it out!
Cheers
Tulkas
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Guys, logic that with side stick for pilot it’s easier to pull towards his body doesn’t work here. With center stick, if you right handed, it’s easier to pull diagonally to the right, but has anyone heard of misalignment of stick and a/c axis in a/c with center stick?
Don’t take this bad, but your logic doesn’t add anything to the discussion. You know or you don’t, you have extra data or you don’t have it.
In the meanwhile I went to ask over F-16.net, I got an straight answer there:
The original YF-16 stick, in addition to being rigid, was aligned with the airplane axis system. It was found that pilots had a tendency to input some small roll command while trying to do a pure pitch pull up. Not sure when the change was made, but production airplanes have a stick with a small amount of motion in addition to the 12 degree rotated axis.
So, yes, if you pull straight back on the stick (airplane axis) you will get a small right roll command.
Now, I cannot say 100% he knows because I don’t know the guy but is register at the forums as an LM engineer, has been in the forums since 2007 and has +1000 posts there so all together with the information showed in this thread I am mostly convinced that most modern F16s has that rotation on the stick control axis. This is compatible with Kukki’s possible A-modell SSC not having such a rotation.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Talked to sa good friend of mine, that have the BLK 10 and BLK 52 stickbase, and the Pitch transducers in the BLK 10 Stickbase is NOT angled those 12 degree, but they are in the BLK 52 stick base, so I guess the newer type of stickbases are modified after they found out that you tend to pull the stick a little inboard to you.
And that explains why my Pitch up/down is straight (I have the old stick base).So I think we can’t squeeze much more out if this here topic, I think we have our answers and all got a bit wiser here.
Good Talk. -
Talked to sa good friend of mine, that have the BLK 10 and BLK 52 stickbase, and the Pitch transducers in the BLK 10 Stickbase is NOT angled those 12 degree, but they are in the BLK 52 stick base, so I guess the newer type of stickbases are modified after they found out that you tend to pull the stick a little inboard to you.
And that explains why my Pitch up/down is straight (I have the old stick base).So I think we can’t squeeze much more out if this here topic, I think we have our answers and all got a bit wiser here.
Good Talk.yeah and we know that TARGET is able to mix axis…
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Ok guys I am hoping to settle this once and for all. Here is a screenshot of Foxy’s Joystick Analyzer showing my block 50 real stick being pushed and pulled straight fore and aft. You can clearly see the compensation built in to the sensors. Roll is dead even with horizontal. What it doesnt show though is how marginal the difference is. I could easily fly without it and I am certain I would get used to it in minutes. Granted, it is really effective because my natural movement when I am not thinking about it makes the cursor go straight. Having said that, I have an FCC 2 and to be fair, I will hook it up and try it.
Tulkas, I know you are obsessed with getting as real as you can but if you dont have the offset I do not think you will be hindered at all. After all, you havent even tried this yet. Do you have the FCC? If so, see if Arend will mod your sensors. It may be the answer for you.
By the way, I have an A-model 24 pin stick base and it does not have the offset so there you go guys. I hope that will put this to bed. Great discussion guys. Tulkas, I of all people understand wanting to get as much as you can exactly like the real F-16. A worthy effort mate.
Regards
Nigel -
The more I think about it the more I think this may be quite a significant mod from Lockheed Martin. I can imagine that after hours and hours of flying this would save a lot of fatigue for the pilot. That could make a big difference for AAF and combat. Hmmm…
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I’ll see what i can do anyway (it does not seem to be a big deal to include an option in the cfg )
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TOP
Mav-JP -
if i understand correctly , only the AFT/ FWD sensor is rotated ? the left right is not ? (i.e. no roll / pitch coupling but only pitch / roll coupling ?)
i dont get it :(…