SEAD tactics - israel theater
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SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Had to learn fast after the mauling from the Egyptian IADS (SA-6/3) in 73 - although I believe they were using AGM-45s back then as well.
In 82 taking out the Bekaa valley SAMs (Syrian) seems to have been clever use of UAVs/Drones along with AGM-65 armed F-4s.
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Either way, low alt loft/toss profile allows you to hit the target from about 10nm without going above 6000ft (with practice you are on a reverced heading at low altitude within 25 seconds of initial popup
I would like some more info on this profile. With a 20* loft with GBU-38s the loft cue doesn’t appear until ~7nm out and I get really close to busting 6000’.
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@migbuster, the F4s in “Artzav19” used AGM78s and AGM62s (walleye). AFAIK, AGM65s never saw operational use in the IAF, and we’re eventually taken out of service.
@jinro88. Set profile 1 in CCRP mode with loft angle 35 degrees. Profile 2 to MAN, either single bomb or 2 bombs in single ripple.when approaching the target Go full mil on the deck. Be mindfully to the 620kts external fuel tank limitation. When you get the pull up cue (about 12-10 nm) go into Full AB, hold 3 seconds and start a gentle pull up (g limit), once your nose crosses 35 degrees nose up pickle in PROF2. No need to wait for release cue. Good luck!
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What speed on ingress? I do 200’ at 550kts and the pull up cue doesn’t appear until 7-8nm.
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Set the angle to 35. The angle is what sets the cue distance.
550-580 should give you a pull up at about 10nm -
@migbuster, the F4s in “Artzav19” used AGM78s and AGM62s (walleye). AFAIK, AGM65s never saw operational use in the IAF, and we’re eventually taken out of service.
Is mentioned in 2 sources that claim AGM-65s (and AGM-78 ) used - 1 is 1990 quite old admittedly - the other 2002:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iron-Hand-Smashing-Enemys-Defences/dp/1852606053
Mastiff RPV / scout drones used - with Samson (Early TALD) it states
They definitely had some - why were they not used when Iran and everyone else had such success with them?
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In real, SEAD <=> DEAD
If my “translation” to your answer is correct, and considering as a fact what the symbol <=> means/does in mathematics, if you think that a SEAD mission is the same or points-to a DEAD mission shortly after, or vice-versa, you are wrong. Or at least rl docs clearly define and state the differences and the specific objectives per mission, used weaponry, and wanted outcome.
SEAD is done by the IAF, however, weapons and tactics are different from those used by the USAF.
Recommended method is to use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks.
Apart that it was officially stated so by IAF officials at the latest exercise,
SEAD: Suppression
DEAD: DestructionFor a weapon to be certified for suppression, it needs to be able to fly and stay autonomous above/near a forward operations area, able to self-track and attack any possible emission coming from a ground radar or SAM radar. The objective of the mission is to not allow any radar sensor emit due to fear of destruction, so to forbid the track of any trailing attacking aircraft, most commonly as parts of a larger COMAO. If eventually such a shot/missile of a SEAD-mission-aircraft does manage to track and destroy a ground emitter, it is not considered as a DEAD point but as an opportunity-target-kill. The only weapons capable of doing so are the Harm and Alarm. Since none are in the IAF inventory (currently, since Harm purchase is on approval stage by US Congress), and no Alarm missile is certified for the F-16, that gives a safe FACT that no SEAD capabilities for IAF, at least for the next 2-3 years, and if US Congress gives the green light for the export. Older missiles in IAF inventory like Strike and Standard are not used anymore (as of my knowledge), and even if they were active they don’t have the ability to stay above an area, only to perform a direct hit as from a pre- launch locked emission, which is a DEAD action.
The only missile in IAF inventory that could be described as partially close to that is the Delilah, due to the ability of flying above an area for large times using INS/autopilot as and real time guidance through datalink from a MFD on the viper, BUT, since it has TV-EO and IR tracking sensors only and not any radar-transmitted energy sensors, it is not to be considered as such a suppression weapon. A good camouflage net in visual and ir spectrum could turn possible targets completely stealth to Delilah and free to emit as necessary without fear of destruction.
“use JDAM for low altitude LOFT attacks” is a Destruction = DEAD mission, against static ground radar stations. You cannot enforce ANY radar emitters to shut down by fear that they will be destroyed by free-fall bombs…
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In real, SEAD <=> DEAD.
If my “translation” to your answer is correct, and considering as a fact what the symbol <=> means/does in mathematics, if you think that a SEAD mission is the same or points-to a DEAD mission shortly after, or vice-versa, you are wrong. Or at least rl docs clearly define and state the differences and the specific objectives per mission, used weaponry, and wanted outcome……
I mean ‘not equal to’ …. SEAD is not equal to DEAD.
What ‘we’ normally do in BMS is DEAD … our goal isn’t ‘supression’, but ‘destruction’.
My point being that how we fly BMS isn’t necessarily the same as what country x flies in real life … we fly the missions and tactics the sim requires, even if/when we try to employ realistic procedures.
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Raptor, while your analyses is 100% accurate according to published information it is unlikely that the present SEAD capability in the IAF is less then that of 1982.
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I’m not sure who I’m addressing this post to…I assume Echo7 but seems he appears to agree with what I’m about to say, I’m not sure.
Anyway, I’ve been flying a bit in the Israel Theater and, like others, lamenting the absence of AGMs to tackle the SAM threat. I flew a SEAD flight last night, armed with nothing but CBU’s.
After dragging my crippled aircraft back to base without a kill, I started doing some research on this. I simply CANNOT BELIEVE that the IAF does not have standoff AGMs for SEAD. Not when in previous wars/conflicts they had them. Like Echo7 says above, it is unlikely the present SEAD capability in the IAF is less than that of 1982.
A google search turned up this short article detailing Israel seeking a $5 billion loan to purchase, among other weapons, AGM-88s to replace their AGM-78s: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/07/01/Israel-seeks-5B-in-US-loans-to-buy-arms/UPI-49641372706630/
I also have a book here at home called, “Middle East Airpower in the 21st Century” by Tim Ripley, in which he indicates Israel’s Air-to-Ground weapons include: AGM-45A/B Shrike, AGM-45D Shrike, AGM-78A/B/CD Standard/Purple Fist, AGM-88 HARM.
Given all of these weapons, even if the IAF doesn’t have AGM-88s, they should have a stockpile of some of the others. Although I believe that if they had AGM-88s they wouldn’t have expended their entire inventory without knowing that more were on the way.
In short, I think you guys might have made an error in the weapons you’re allowing for the IAF in the theater. While I appreciate the challenge, there is no way the IAF has allowed the situation to develop such that they don’t have a reliable standoff anti-radiation missile…
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Technology has changed. You don’t need ARM to destroy SAMs. You only need an ELINT platform capable of triangulating Emitting radar. Then you just pass the coordinates to any standoff weapon available. For that matter, jdam, GBU-15s and similar weapons.
For the IAF, Shrike and StdARM are long gone. HARM are still far away. But make no mistake. That does not take away anything from DEAD/SEAD capability.
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- SPICE and Delilah which are not yet modeled in the sim.
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Technology has changed. You don’t need ARM to destroy SAMs. You only need an ELINT platform capable of triangulating Emitting radar. Then you just pass the coordinates to any standoff weapon available. For that matter, jdam, GBU-15s and similar weapons.
For the IAF, Shrike and StdARM are long gone. HARM are still far away. But make no mistake. That does not take away anything from DEAD/SEAD capability.
Did you read the article where Israel is seeking a 5 billion loan to buy AGM-88s? That was in summer 2013.
Do we have the capability in Falcon to have an ELINT platform triangulate the emitting radar and pass the coordinates to us so we can use JDAM or GBU-15?
There are a lot of real-world capabilities missing from Falcon, and other things modeled poorly. I wonder if not having the full capabilities of the IAF, coupled with “realistic” weapon loadouts doesn’t sort of miss the point. You’re not giving the player AGMs, but you’re also not giving the player the myriad ways the IAF has to do SEAD in lieu of those weapons.
Does that make sense?
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HTS+HARM are effective ELINT as is JSTARS. When you take off and your HAD page is full of little green numbers, that is the result of ELINT. Some problems with Falcon is ELINT is either 100% accurate or 0% accurate, at least at time of generation. We miss several tools to turn this intel into targeting data, especially while airborne. Imagine one F-16 flying with JASSM, one operator in 2D map watching as JSTARSs gets on station. Suddenly JSTARS spots a pop up SA-10 due to ELINT. Operator recons to get precision lat/long gets on the phone with ACC C-130 who radios F-16 giving lat/long. JASSM away, SA-10 kill. It’s a complete hack Falcon job but something like real capability.
Red SAM are quite hamstrung too. AI shouts at the top of its lungs HEREIAM HEREIAM HEREIAM. It never shoots and scoots. It’s never intimidated when a known F-16CJ base launches a two ship straight at it. Even without ARM, it’s not fair how stupid AI ADS is.
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Did you read the article where Israel is seeking a 5 billion loan to buy AGM-88s? That was in summer 2013.
Do we have the capability in Falcon to have an ELINT platform triangulate the emitting radar and pass the coordinates to us so we can use JDAM or GBU-15?
There are a lot of real-world capabilities missing from Falcon, and other things modeled poorly. I wonder if not having the full capabilities of the IAF, coupled with “realistic” weapon loadouts doesn’t sort of miss the point. You’re not giving the player AGMs, but you’re also not giving the player the myriad ways the IAF has to do SEAD in lieu of those weapons.
Does that make sense?
Valid points, and taking out munitions was not done without considering this. My view is that the current situation is better, because while the IAF may perform SEAD with JDAMs or LGBs, it certainly does not perform it with HARMs (which it doesn’t have). Having everyone flying around with HARMs would not be correct.
There are other capabilities which are not present in Falcon and we manage without them in every theater. In depth EW simulation, IFF, drones, etc.
And while HARMs are not present, you do have on IAF F-16s internal jammer (and two seaters [D/I] actually have a stronger one) and many more chaff / flare dispensers. In addition we are encouraging everyone to take the HTS on two seaters to simulate the more advanced ESM equipemnt present in these jets internally. I agree with what Frederf says about the HTS and ELINT. So we did what we could within the limits to enhance the SEAD capability.
SPI and better modeling of GPS weapons is being worked on, including some Made in Israel presents
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including some Made in Israel presents
+1
I am too working on some stuff to enhance IAF abilities and expand the db, if you would like to implement these when they will be ready I could pass it over to you with the appropriate documentation for future releases.
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Thanks Raptor, check PM
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Kel’aa is the name given to the HARM in the IDF, according to some sites found in the inet via a quick google search. That of course does not mean that they have it in their inventory. Several sources in the inet state that Israel is still trying to buy the HARM from USA (see e.g. http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/07/01/Israel-seeks-5B-in-US-loans-to-buy-arms/UPI-49641372706630/). Besides, taking a look on the database of SIPRI from 1991 until now, you find tons of weapons sold by USA to Israel, from laser JDAMS to SDB, Hellfire, Popeye, TOW, Sidewinder, AMRAAMs etc. but no HARM. I think the key to answer why Israel does not have any ARM weapon is a powerful and extended employment of ELINT/JAMING/DECOYs.
BTW: @Echo…we in the 185th are about to start a Campaign on Israel for the squadron in the next days. You guys did a very nice job! Cheers!
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they could just be lying. states have been known to lie. i made the thread and i’m going to give israel another try now. tbh i kind of like the lower tech feel of it, sidewinders only: final destination
i think when i started the thread i was just really bad at dodging SAs heh
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So much for ELINT
Weasel back on duty.
HARM sales on the raise.