Does POS-RUK mode for HARMs work well on BMS?
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RUK shouldn’t have a loft program. The only mode that should have lofting is PB, IIRC…
That’s the bug.
If the DLZ bracket has a “60” above it and a STPT is selected puts the caret above the “60” it does the loft program. Firing at SA-6 smoke out of the launcher cause the -88 to go into orbit. If the target is guncrossed it hits behind the target.
. I have successfully destroyed SAMs with RUK mode when my current STPT is 20nm behind me. If the emitting target is within the HARM’s FOV it will lock shortly after launch.
20nm behind the is ok, I tried it. 80nm behind is not. Check the DLZ at 20nm behind….no “60” and caret in low in the DLZ.
I would do the bug report but I already spent my bugfix credit.
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Unless there’s another criteria I can’t get a HARM to live more than 200 seconds. With a somewhat sloppy launch I managed a 58.2nm standoff kill vs a Fan Song I think in PB. I wonder what standoff I can achieve in other modes. Presumably EOM is superior as the path is quicker and can make better use of the 200 seconds. With slightly better technique I managed a 73.1nm EOM shot against a Long Track with 3:11 predicted TOF (3:17 TOF actual).
I tried long shots in all POS submodes and found little difference in that regime. Perhaps PB or even RUK have an advantage by going active sooner and thus getting more speed by diving down sooner but it was slight.
What I haven’t tried is off-axis shots. The -34 says that launch restrictions for PB are ± 5 degrees and that the MMZ/ALZ range symbol won’t show up until. I also think in reality the weapon release requires weapons computer consent (flashing FOV box) much like CCRP is consent-based.
The hands-on TMS, cursor, pinky controls for POS/HAS control are quite nice. I wish the HAD page had a TMS command to step between threats or something to discriminate co-located targets. I think in a true self-defense scenario HAS mode might be best but I’m not sure to what degree post-launch steering in RUK disrupts arbitrary bearing threats.
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Here i give a couple of videos of the dozens of times i tried to hit the SA-2.
This is a TE mission, where on STP 5 there is a SA-2, and on STP 6 there is a SA-5. I fly directly at stp 6 at angels 20-22 with POS-PB or POS-EOM mode set, waiting for the SA-2 to lock on me. When it happens, i change to RUK submode, select “2” (SA-2) on the table, use the RWR to position the SA-2 aproximately in front on me, and pickle. The HARM goes out but does not direct itself to the working sam.
On one ocassion i even tried to keep flying straight to keep the SA-2 lock on me and the HARM still never went after the SA-2 site. Of course i also got shot down.
!Try selecting STP 5 (SA-2) before launch. The STP does not need to be on the SA-2. Try the STP <30nm from the a/c. Wait for a RWR launch detection to fire.
IMO, there is a lofting bug.
The -88 should be able to lock the SA-2 pre-launch and range it with seeker’s slant angle and altitude the same way HAS does it. The bug is using the current STPT range and not seeker ranging. When the current STPT is >60nm (STP 6) it looks as if a loft component is added to the navigation when the -88 should be taking a LOS course.
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Try selecting STP 5 (SA-2) before launch. The STP does not need to be on the SA-2. Try the STP <30nm from the a/c. Wait for a RWR launch detection to fire.
IMO, there is a lofting bug.
The -88 should be able to lock the SA-2 pre-launch and range it with seeker’s slant angle and altitude the same way HAS does it. The bug is using the current STPT range and not seeker ranging. When the current STPT is >60nm (STP 6) it looks as if a loft component is added to the navigation when the -88 should be taking a LOS course.
There is no bug
In POS mode at launch the harm has absolutly no idea of the range of the target (target is unknown)
So the only range the harm knows is the STP range
If steepoint handed off is far missile will go loft immediatly
There is no bug , it is as per design
Before launching in POS make sure that the STP selected is more or less in the area of the supposed sam
If you dont have a correct STP just mark an aera ans use the mark STP number
You can not expect the harm to have a correct flight profile when your target is 20NM and you asked tje harm to fly initially at 80NM
Dont forget : in POS the harm has no idea where the sam is when launched
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There is no bug
In POS mode at launch the harm has absolutly no idea of the range of the target (target is unknown)
So the only range the harm knows is the STP range
If steepoint handed off is far missile will go loft immediatly
There is no bug , it is as per design
Before launching in POS make sure that the STP selected is more or less in the area of the supposed sam
If you dont have a correct STP just mark an aera ans use the mark STP number
You can not expect the harm to have a correct flight profile when your target is 20NM and you asked tje harm to fly initially at 80NM
Dont forget : in POS the harm has no idea where the sam is when launched
I will try that, but to be honest i´m surprise that the STP haves any influence on the flight path of the HARM when you use RUK submode. According to the BMS manual when you use RUK submode, the head activate inmediately after the missile left the aircraft. I understand the logic that the missile does not know where the SAM is when released in POS mode, but i don´t find the logic when using RUK submode that you must have a STP around the area of the possible SAM site. RUK submode it suppose to work as a rapid self defense mode, that IMO means that i could be flying to a stp 200 miles away for all i care, and all the sudden i have a warning of SAM site in range, so i switch to POS-RUK, select SAM type, aim my nose to the direction of the SAM threat and missile away. After that is getting defensive and wait for the HARM to go after the SAM threat.
By using the RUK submode, the logic is that the HARM would ignore completely the stp selected, it will just try to go after the stronger signal of the selected SAM type and try to reach it, being in range or not.
I can´t see the logic of having to create a markpoint around the SAM area, it would take several precious secconds to do so. -
I will try that, but to be honest i´m surprise that the STP haves any influence on the flight path of the HARM when you use RUK submode. According to the BMS manual when you use RUK submode, the head activate inmediately after the missile left the aircraft. I understand the logic that the missile does not know where the SAM is when released in POS mode, but i don´t find the logic when using RUK submode that you must have a STP around the area of the possible SAM site. RUK submode it suppose to work as a rapid self defense mode, that IMO means that i could be flying to a stp 200 miles away for all i care, and all the sudden i have a warning of SAM site in range, so i switch to POS-RUK, select SAM type, aim my nose to the direction of the SAM threat and missile away. After that is getting defensive and wait for the HARM to go after the SAM threat.
By using the RUK submode, the logic is that the HARM would ignore completely the stp selected, it will just try to go after the stronger signal of the selected SAM type and try to reach it, being in range or not.
I can´t see the logic of having to create a markpoint around the SAM area, it would take several precious secconds to do so.Sorry but the logic is pretty clear to me
The missile must have a flight profile off the rails
If the flight profile is always without loft you will tell me that in RUK you arenunable yo hit 50nm distant threat
So it makes sense to me to tell the missile which flight profile it should apply.and this is done by.STP selection
And about the logic FYI we didnt invent it , we implemented the real logic as close.as we could /know
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Perhaps PB or even RUK have an advantage by going active sooner and thus getting more speed by diving down sooner but it was slight.
RUK should be the only one to go active sooner (right after launch). In both EOM and PB the HARM doesn’t go active until 5nm from the STPT, IIRC. The only two differences I can find between EOM and PB are the FOV and lofting cues in PB.
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RUK should be the only one to go active sooner (right after launch). In both EOM and PB the HARM doesn’t go active until 5nm from the STPT, IIRC. The only two differences I can find between EOM and PB are the FOV and lofting cues in PB.
U need SEAD tactics to make it work earlier than 5nm. Difficult to do with AI. With AI u must be the carrot and instruct him to take out the thread.
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SEAD tactics won’t change the range at which the seeker head is programmed to go active….?
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RUK is the same as HAS(both range unknown/target of opportunity modes). so use HAS better. u dont want the HARM to go active ASAP since it searches a larger geographical area making it susceptible to a miss or an impact somewhere within the Missile Impact Zone.
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…… In both EOM and PB the HARM doesn’t go active until 5nm from the STPT, IIRC. The only two differences I can find between EOM and PB are the FOV and lofting cues in PB.
Just a bit of a correction on when the seeker goes active in the different POS sub-modes:
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Each mode controls at which point the missile will activate its seeker and what will be the seeker’s FOV. The most accurate mode is EOM. It will activate the seeker at 5NM from the handed-off steerpoint with a 40 deg FOV. This mode should only be used when the location of the emitter is well-known—i.e., emitter position collocated with a steerpoint. In PB mode, the seeker will activate at 15NM from the handed off steerpoint with a 120 deg FOV. This mode should be used when the position of the emitter is relatively close to the steerpoint. In the last mode, RUK, the seeker is activated immediately after launch with a 120 deg FOV. …
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/content.php?154-No-HARM-No-Foul-A-New-Way-of-Destroying-Radars
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Sorry but the logic is pretty clear to me
The missile must have a flight profile off the rails
If the flight profile is always without loft you will tell me that in RUK you arenunable yo hit 50nm distant threat
So it makes sense to me to tell the missile which flight profile it should apply.and this is done by.STP selection
And about the logic FYI we didnt invent it , we implemented the real logic as close.as we could /know
Ok, i will try again also selecting an stp behind me, to see what happens.
By the way, when you suggested about using a markpoint, were you referring to using an OVERFLY markpoint right? I can´t imagine how to set a TGP or FCR markpoint if i don´t know the location of the SAM site, with the exception of aproximate direction. -
Ok, i will try again also selecting an stp behind me, to see what happens.
By the way, when you suggested about using a markpoint, were you referring to using an OVERFLY markpoint right? I can´t imagine how to set a TGP or FCR markpoint if i don´t know the location of the SAM site, with the exception of aproximate direction.From mission planning u will know where the SAM will be so put a point and it will show on HSD… even if it’s moving it will be near there.
If u fire it having a STPT behind u it will go buzinca… -
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well,there is a way of knowing the exact coordinates of an unknown SAM, using the HAD(for range and bearing), an OFLY markpoint, the VRP option and some distance conversion calculations.
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Not necessarily. I have done it.
Yes but this is luck. U want it to go by luck or know what u r doing and expect a good result?
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Yes but this is luck. U want it to go by luck or know what u r doing and expect a good result?
It’s not luck with RUK mode. I have done it with surprising consistency.
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Ok, i will try again also selecting an stp behind me, to see what happens.
By the way, when you suggested about using a markpoint, were you referring to using an OVERFLY markpoint right? I can´t imagine how to set a TGP or FCR markpoint if i don´t know the location of the SAM site, with the exception of aproximate direction.I’d use the HUD markpoint sub-mode, I think. Just pick a spot some good ways out in front of you for the HARM to initially ‘latch’ to as far as range.
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The missile must have a flight profile off the rails
If the flight profile is always without loft you will tell me that in RUK you arenunable yo hit 50nm distant threat
POS-RUK turns the seeker on while on the rail. HAS also turns the seeker on the rail and does not have STPT flight profile off the rail.
I can only reverse engineer speculate on how the RUK or HAS ranges a locked target while on the rail to create a loft.1. It uses right angel triangle trigonometry. One angel (slant angel) and one leg (altitude). Lock a target in HAS, it shows were the target is in it’s FOV.
2. The pilot determine the loft. There is no computerize loft program. I doubt irl that RUK uses a STPT. Pilot just a lines the jet with the RWR.
Sorry but the logic is pretty clear to me
You don’t understand the situation. If your current STPT is 70nm away and a SA-6 pops up 10nm off your nose you can’t hit it with POS-RUK. Does that sound like a self protect mode?
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Ok, i will try again also selecting an stp behind me, to see what happens.
By the way, when you suggested about using a markpoint, were you referring to using an OVERFLY markpoint right? I can´t imagine how to set a TGP or FCR markpoint if i don´t know the location of the SAM site, with the exception of aproximate direction.First you have to call for a “time out”. You don’t want SAM flying at you while you are trying MARK STPT with just a RWR bearing.