Does POS-RUK mode for HARMs work well on BMS?
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The HARMs missed, and they always will mis because it’s an anti-radiation emiter missiles. That means that it will only hit radar, which are the source of the radiations. As i understand you, you and your brother fired the first HARM to the SA-2 site radar, which is the Fan Song B, and it hit it as it suppose to. But after that you both tried to hit the LAUNCHERS (you call them SA-2) with the HARMS. You will never be able to do that, the launchers do not emit.
When people talk about SA-2, SA-3, and so on, they are referrring to the wholl SAM site, which includes launchers and radar.
Resuming, use HARM only against the radar of the SAM site, the rest you will have to use CBU, GBU, maverick or any other weapon. Otherwise you will waste a lot of HARMs.cool, thanks for explaining man! i read on wikipedia that the higher tier SAs sa10+(?) have radar as part of the launcher unit, do these rely on a site radar to shoot at you, and if there is one can they lock on their own? is this modelled in game?
thanks for the info, it’s nice to know that SA2s etc become totally useless once the fan song is gone. makes it much less scary to come in with rockeyes.
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@Cik:
cool, thanks for explaining man! i read on wikipedia that the higher tier SAs sa10+(?) have radar as part of the launcher unit, do these rely on a site radar to shoot at you, and if there is one can they lock on their own? is this modelled in game?
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Yes they are in the game. They are called TELAR’s (Transporter, Erector, Launcher and Radar). They are, iirc, SA-11, SA-15, SA-17, SA-19. For those, each vehicle has it’s own radar for fire control and/or missile guideance. For other models (SA-2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10), in BMS, there is only a central fire control/missile guidance radar. In those cases killing the central radar effectively disables the entire SAM site.
SA-13 also has radar ‘assist’ (for target range only according to TacRef), but it is a short-range IR missile platform.
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btw, i just started a new campaign after the last one ended in a draw, and i was flying slightly past seoul on a SEAD escort, and i was getting blinky red (so definitely active) SA-5 and 3, 1 of each. i don’t think i’ve ever seen this before. what does that mean?
edit: do note that at least one fired at me, but i did a small turn and chaffed and defeated it pretty easily. i think i ended up destroying at least one of them with rockeyes, the other was very far away and i didn’t want to risk flying over to destroy it, there was a huge cloud of MIGs in it’s direction.
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@Cik:
btw, i just started a new campaign after the last one ended in a draw, and i was flying slightly past seoul on a SEAD escort, and i was getting blinky red (so definitely active) SA-5 and 3, 1 of each. i don’t think i’ve ever seen this before. what does that mean?
edit: do note that at least one fired at me, but i did a small turn and chaffed and defeated it pretty easily. i think i ended up destroying at least one of them with rockeyes, the other was very far away and i didn’t want to risk flying over to destroy it, there was a huge cloud of MIGs in it’s direction.
Blinking red means that the SAM site is firing a missile, to you or to someone else. I suppose you saw the blinking red on the HAD page. If you see blinking red and you dont have a missile launch warning on your RWR means that the SAM site is firing to someone else. If you see red but not blinking, it means the SAM site is permanently tracking you or someone else. Usually the continuous red will be followed some secconds later by a blinking red :D.
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yeah, but if SA-5 and under don’t emit for sure, how’s it tracking me? wouldn’t i only see the S radar going red, because it’s the only thing that’s emitting?
i’m asking how i see it on a radar receiver at all if it doesn’t emit i guess.
if it see one blinky red can i shoot back and destroy it with HAD-targeted HARM? if it’s blinky red i should be able to kill it because it’s emitting, right?
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It should be a “5” not an “S.” Sometimes a search radar and the Barlock are located very close to each other and/or the symbols do look similar. Ss shouldn’t go red ever (S and A alternating flash might be red for AAA). You can launch on the Barlock in any of the yellow or red or red flashing states and HARM will track. RWR seems to only show 5 very close a short time before launch. In reality the SA-5 system is usually composed of several radars for different purposes, barlock acquisition, square pair engagement, height finders, early warning earth, low altitude. BMS roll these all into one object so it’s just “the SAM’s radar.” The danger of SAMs in the hands of good operators is the ability to use integrated air defense network information to silently (or rather using boring generic search radar) watch you fly into the heart of their envelope and then come online and engage as rapidly as humanly possible. Depending on the system SAMs can get a missile in the air heading your way on preplanned data and provide much delayed warning (if any).
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so to clarify, the barlock, lowblow, fan song etc, will show up as their respective numbers and NOT an S? so what are the search radars everywhere for, just for show? to give the campaign AI sight? can SAs etc tie into them at all for target acquisition? thanks for the info. you learn a lot on this forum man, A++ would read again
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Yes. I believe the S will add to the overall knowledge of the “red team” against your jet. For example I flew in deep to red territory past a MiG-23 cap that didn’t turn to engage until I popped up and got spotted by a DPRK-owned search radar. Does search radar help the speed and accuracy of a SAM engagement? I don’t know. It should especially if the latent IADS code gets online in a future version. One could do some tests popping into an SA-2 envelope from terrain masking with and without cooperative search radars knowing about you before pop up. It might be hard to physically set up the scenario.
(SA-2) ……/mountain…(F-16)…(Search Radar)
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Yes. I believe the S will add to the overall knowledge of the “red team” against your jet. For example I flew in deep to red territory past a MiG-23 cap that didn’t turn to engage until I popped up and got spotted by a DPRK-owned search radar. Does search radar help the speed and accuracy of a SAM engagement? I don’t know. It should especially if the latent IADS code gets online in a future version. One could do some tests popping into an SA-2 envelope from terrain masking with and without cooperative search radars knowing about you before pop up. It might be hard to physically set up the scenario.
(SA-2) ……/mountain…(F-16)…(Search Radar)
thanks amigo, you learn something new every day
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now… i have another question.probably the makers of the game can give the answer. how do u know when a sam has changed position?i was reading about TLP and was said that in a mission the Hellenic crews spotted a sam changing position. their system is HAS only(i believe).
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well… you know when it’s changed position when you mark it as a steerpoint, fly in and it’s not there. other hints include: you fly into the steerpoint and you see puffs of smoke coming from somewhere that isn’t the steerpoint and you hear a alarming ringing noise. that means you’re being shot at maybe by the SAMs that moved.
in my experience though, they’ll rarely move the SA2s and stuff. shilkas and geckos and stuff will move around with their host battalions, but generally SA2s stay mostly stationary. could be wrong though.
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talking about Electronic Order of Battle update.yeah, what you are sayin is true.but then is a bit late, no?
i want to know whether the SAM has been mobile way before entering its Missile Engagement Zone -
Back to the topic:
The POS RUK dilemma could be explained like this: it heads for the STPT. It selects the flight mode based on the distance to the STPT (as it is POS mod). And the search cone is like flashlight pointing directly ahead. With OEM and PB it works, like in the profile picture. With RUK mode it doesn’t scan well close targets: the scan cone should be pointed towards the ground, like in the profiles picture. But it doesn’t. And that explains the overfly misses.This is just a hypothesis, but it would match the views of all participants.
And I also agree that as it is it is is no-good self defense mode. There must be something which does not match the real life. Either the range to STPT dependency or the search cone.
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Back to the topic:
The POS RUK dilemma could be explained like this: it heads for the STPT. It selects the flight mode based on the distance to the STPT (as it is POS mod).Maybe, I can only find POS RUK in the MLU docs. The USAF (1991) appears to have a different Aircraft Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC) than the MLU.
Like I said before, the BMS-88 has auto lofting code in RUK mode. If this is r/l why are there 4 lofting cue on the HUD and none are available in RUK? Also not included in POS-RUK mode HUD Symbology is Max Range, Time to Release, Altitude to Release and Required Turn.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/storm-03.htm
The weapon is fitted with a strapdown inertial navigator and in range known modes will fly a range optimising profile.Does the RUK mode fly a heading to the current STPT if the seeker does not lock? Maybe imo. There seems to be concern about collateral damage with this long range missile and it does have a nasty anti-personal warhead. <shrug>Also, there are options in SMS to limit the -88’s range. If RUK is not designed to fly to the STPT, the Azimuth Steering Line is available in RUK to fire in the direction of the STPT.</shrug>
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My hypothesis was for Falcon4 and BMS especially. I do not know the real missile, except that like this the use does not make sense.
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http://www.sci.fi/~fta/storm-03.htm
The weapon is fitted with a strapdown inertial navigator and in range known modes will fly a range optimising profile.Also spotted in that website that the seeker can work C to J bands. That being true, it would confirm that it cannot track VHF search radars, as people (especially monly ;)) have discussed discussed in other topics
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@Akbar:
Also spotted in that website that the seeker can work C to J bands. That being true, it would confirm that it cannot track VHF search radars, as people (especially monly ;)) have discussed discussed in other topics
Correct. And will be taken in acount in furute version.
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I can track VHF.
Don’t they make mach+2 rabbit ears?
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just finnished reading “Viper Pilot” by Dan Hampton. i found this thread by trying to verify things i read in the book. there is most definitely a “self-defense” mode for HARM employment in the F-16. however, after reading this thread, i am left with more questions.
i am led to believe RUK submode is what is being used in the book. the pilots would launch a quick -88 in a general direction independent of the current steerpoint. the brevity code is a “SLAPSHOT”. the pilots in the book used this on unknown threats that would randomly pop up throughout the mission. based on what i am reading here, it sounds like the HARM wants to follow the current steerpoint in RUK. that seems counterproductive to the intent of the mode.
am i missing something? is RUK not used for slapshots? is this mode not working in BMS like the r/l jet? whats the story?
its a good book. i think many of you would enjoy it.
excerpt from book:
January 19, 1991. Gulf War (first combat mission of author)Looking south, I could only see one contrail left. My RWR was still cluttered with “3” symbols, and the audio warning was screeching in my helmet. But Orca [F-4G flight lead callsign] pulled straight up in a classic last-ditch maneuver. White vapor trails streamed off his wingtips as we came up through the horizon and pointed at the sun. Almost simultaneously, we both rolled in the direction the missiles had to be coming from. More chaff spit out behind him as we zoomed up and continued to roll until we were upside-down again.
He came through the horizon inverted, then sluggishly leveled off. I found myself between the Phantom and the SAMs, so I instantly barrel-rolled over his tail to about a mile behind him. My face was sweaty and I was breathing hard, but it occurred to me that the maneuvers and chaff had worked. At least three SAMs had been shot at us, and we’d survived. And those were three SAMs that hadn’t been shot at the strikers.
“Two Dogs… Slapshot SA-2 bearing two-zero-five…”
My personal call sign penetrated the noise, confusion, and fog of combat, and that was precisely why we used them. A “Slapshot” was a quick-reaction HARM fired along the given bearing. It was supposed to force the SAM radar off the air or, if he stayed up, it would theoretically go right down its throat.
Almost of their own accord, my hands moved, and I pulled the F-16 to a heading of 205 degrees and stared at the HUD. The big pointing cross symbolizing the HARM’s nose hovered over my heading display. My eyes flickered to the bottom of the HUD and I confirmed, again, that my weapons were armed. Swallowing once, hard, I mashed down on the red pickle button and held it. For a long half-second, nothing happened. But as I looked out at my left wing, the jet shook violently and the HARM snaked off the rail.
“Sonofabitch…” It actually worked.
“TORCH Two, Magnum SA-2!”
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There may be RUK modes other than POS-RUK. Depending on the F-16 model and it’s equipment the options available vary. POS-EOM, POS-PB, and POS-RUK are steerpoint-seekers in BMS and there is documentation to confirm this. I could see the value of a “straight shooter” but I have no documentation that is actionable.
It’s possible that in the above passage the missile was fired in POS-RUK seeking current steerpoint but it was deemed irrelevant since the emitter was active and would abandon any steerpoint-seeking behavior so early in it’s flight. Or it was a different “straight shooter” mode. It’s hard to say. Does the book detail the year, country, model, and equipment for that flight?