Does POS-RUK mode for HARMs work well on BMS?
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Yes. I believe the S will add to the overall knowledge of the “red team” against your jet. For example I flew in deep to red territory past a MiG-23 cap that didn’t turn to engage until I popped up and got spotted by a DPRK-owned search radar. Does search radar help the speed and accuracy of a SAM engagement? I don’t know. It should especially if the latent IADS code gets online in a future version. One could do some tests popping into an SA-2 envelope from terrain masking with and without cooperative search radars knowing about you before pop up. It might be hard to physically set up the scenario.
(SA-2) ……/mountain…(F-16)…(Search Radar)
thanks amigo, you learn something new every day
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now… i have another question.probably the makers of the game can give the answer. how do u know when a sam has changed position?i was reading about TLP and was said that in a mission the Hellenic crews spotted a sam changing position. their system is HAS only(i believe).
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well… you know when it’s changed position when you mark it as a steerpoint, fly in and it’s not there. other hints include: you fly into the steerpoint and you see puffs of smoke coming from somewhere that isn’t the steerpoint and you hear a alarming ringing noise. that means you’re being shot at maybe by the SAMs that moved.
in my experience though, they’ll rarely move the SA2s and stuff. shilkas and geckos and stuff will move around with their host battalions, but generally SA2s stay mostly stationary. could be wrong though.
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talking about Electronic Order of Battle update.yeah, what you are sayin is true.but then is a bit late, no?
i want to know whether the SAM has been mobile way before entering its Missile Engagement Zone -
Back to the topic:
The POS RUK dilemma could be explained like this: it heads for the STPT. It selects the flight mode based on the distance to the STPT (as it is POS mod). And the search cone is like flashlight pointing directly ahead. With OEM and PB it works, like in the profile picture. With RUK mode it doesn’t scan well close targets: the scan cone should be pointed towards the ground, like in the profiles picture. But it doesn’t. And that explains the overfly misses.This is just a hypothesis, but it would match the views of all participants.
And I also agree that as it is it is is no-good self defense mode. There must be something which does not match the real life. Either the range to STPT dependency or the search cone.
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Back to the topic:
The POS RUK dilemma could be explained like this: it heads for the STPT. It selects the flight mode based on the distance to the STPT (as it is POS mod).Maybe, I can only find POS RUK in the MLU docs. The USAF (1991) appears to have a different Aircraft Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC) than the MLU.
Like I said before, the BMS-88 has auto lofting code in RUK mode. If this is r/l why are there 4 lofting cue on the HUD and none are available in RUK? Also not included in POS-RUK mode HUD Symbology is Max Range, Time to Release, Altitude to Release and Required Turn.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/storm-03.htm
The weapon is fitted with a strapdown inertial navigator and in range known modes will fly a range optimising profile.Does the RUK mode fly a heading to the current STPT if the seeker does not lock? Maybe imo. There seems to be concern about collateral damage with this long range missile and it does have a nasty anti-personal warhead. <shrug>Also, there are options in SMS to limit the -88’s range. If RUK is not designed to fly to the STPT, the Azimuth Steering Line is available in RUK to fire in the direction of the STPT.</shrug>
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My hypothesis was for Falcon4 and BMS especially. I do not know the real missile, except that like this the use does not make sense.
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http://www.sci.fi/~fta/storm-03.htm
The weapon is fitted with a strapdown inertial navigator and in range known modes will fly a range optimising profile.Also spotted in that website that the seeker can work C to J bands. That being true, it would confirm that it cannot track VHF search radars, as people (especially monly ;)) have discussed discussed in other topics
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@Akbar:
Also spotted in that website that the seeker can work C to J bands. That being true, it would confirm that it cannot track VHF search radars, as people (especially monly ;)) have discussed discussed in other topics
Correct. And will be taken in acount in furute version.
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I can track VHF.
Don’t they make mach+2 rabbit ears?
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just finnished reading “Viper Pilot” by Dan Hampton. i found this thread by trying to verify things i read in the book. there is most definitely a “self-defense” mode for HARM employment in the F-16. however, after reading this thread, i am left with more questions.
i am led to believe RUK submode is what is being used in the book. the pilots would launch a quick -88 in a general direction independent of the current steerpoint. the brevity code is a “SLAPSHOT”. the pilots in the book used this on unknown threats that would randomly pop up throughout the mission. based on what i am reading here, it sounds like the HARM wants to follow the current steerpoint in RUK. that seems counterproductive to the intent of the mode.
am i missing something? is RUK not used for slapshots? is this mode not working in BMS like the r/l jet? whats the story?
its a good book. i think many of you would enjoy it.
excerpt from book:
January 19, 1991. Gulf War (first combat mission of author)Looking south, I could only see one contrail left. My RWR was still cluttered with “3” symbols, and the audio warning was screeching in my helmet. But Orca [F-4G flight lead callsign] pulled straight up in a classic last-ditch maneuver. White vapor trails streamed off his wingtips as we came up through the horizon and pointed at the sun. Almost simultaneously, we both rolled in the direction the missiles had to be coming from. More chaff spit out behind him as we zoomed up and continued to roll until we were upside-down again.
He came through the horizon inverted, then sluggishly leveled off. I found myself between the Phantom and the SAMs, so I instantly barrel-rolled over his tail to about a mile behind him. My face was sweaty and I was breathing hard, but it occurred to me that the maneuvers and chaff had worked. At least three SAMs had been shot at us, and we’d survived. And those were three SAMs that hadn’t been shot at the strikers.
“Two Dogs… Slapshot SA-2 bearing two-zero-five…”
My personal call sign penetrated the noise, confusion, and fog of combat, and that was precisely why we used them. A “Slapshot” was a quick-reaction HARM fired along the given bearing. It was supposed to force the SAM radar off the air or, if he stayed up, it would theoretically go right down its throat.
Almost of their own accord, my hands moved, and I pulled the F-16 to a heading of 205 degrees and stared at the HUD. The big pointing cross symbolizing the HARM’s nose hovered over my heading display. My eyes flickered to the bottom of the HUD and I confirmed, again, that my weapons were armed. Swallowing once, hard, I mashed down on the red pickle button and held it. For a long half-second, nothing happened. But as I looked out at my left wing, the jet shook violently and the HARM snaked off the rail.
“Sonofabitch…” It actually worked.
“TORCH Two, Magnum SA-2!”
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There may be RUK modes other than POS-RUK. Depending on the F-16 model and it’s equipment the options available vary. POS-EOM, POS-PB, and POS-RUK are steerpoint-seekers in BMS and there is documentation to confirm this. I could see the value of a “straight shooter” but I have no documentation that is actionable.
It’s possible that in the above passage the missile was fired in POS-RUK seeking current steerpoint but it was deemed irrelevant since the emitter was active and would abandon any steerpoint-seeking behavior so early in it’s flight. Or it was a different “straight shooter” mode. It’s hard to say. Does the book detail the year, country, model, and equipment for that flight?
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Does the book detail the year, country, model, and equipment for that flight?
i don’t think he mentioned what it was for that particular engagement. however, a great deal of that story is in the 2003 iraq war. he mentioned he flew the F-16CJ block 50 with the 77th FS during that time.
switching gears: can HAS mode be used for slapshots? i must admit i am not that familiar with this mode, i don’t use it that often. i’ve been reading elsewhere that the the HAS mode is similar to the F-18s TOO mode. (which would be what i am looking for) i am very interested in “self-defense” style HARM employment. if i can fire quickly after a missile is in the air my Pk should be relatively high. the problem is i should be yanking and banking, not playing around with menus. any help would be greatly appreciated.
source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_09.html“The F-16CJ with HTS has three HARM attack modes. The “Position Known (POS)” mode is similar to the Navy PB mode but allows midcourse missile targeting updates. The “HARM As Sensor (HAS)” mode is similar to the Navy TOO mode, and the “Launch Off RWR (LOR)” mode is similar to the Navy SP mode.”
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source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_09.html“The F-16CJ with HTS has three HARM attack modes. The “Position Known (POS)” mode is similar to the Navy PB mode but allows midcourse missile targeting updates. The “HARM As Sensor (HAS)” mode is similar to the Navy TOO mode, and the “Launch Off RWR (LOR)” mode is similar to the Navy SP mode.”
POS-RUK can be use for a LOR shot. Your a/c, not the target, has to be close to the current STPT. (iirc I tested up to 20nm from current STPT) The STPT can be behind you with the target in front of you as long as it is less than 20nm. The >20nm could be greater. I quit test after the devs said atm, they were satisfy with the current model.
So in BMS, if you are heading north and a SA-6 pops up to the east on the RWR and you less than 20nm from current STPT you can fire the HARM and it will make wide radius turn toward the emitter. Or, on a clear day you can turn into the RWR bearing, maybe a little off-bore and wait for a visual launch to fire. I tested with the target in front of the a/c’s 3/9 line.
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can HAS mode be used for slapshots?
In the AIM-120 “maddog” sense? No. HAS is like shooting a Maverick. You see synthetic video of a fixed FOV ahead, you select a target, missile acquires, and only then launch.
As for TOO it seems to be a simple case of calling the same function by a different name.
The Target Of Opportunity (TOO) mode, also termed the HARM as Sensor (HAS) or Direct Attack (DA) mode is a lock-on-before-launch (LOBL) mode in which the missile receiver is used before launch to acquire the target. This mode allows off axis attacks on emitters within the field of view of the seeker. It is typically used as an offensive mode by non-dedicated strike aircraft to suppress emitters.
I would be hesitant to use HAS in self-defense simply because any emitter close enough there wouldn’t be enough time to acquire, lock, and fire and any emitter far enough would represent a very skinny terrain grazing angle for a direct HARM shot. It would be likely to hit trees or a hillside coming in so parallel to the ground.
“Launch Off RWR (LOR)” mode is similar to the Navy SP mode."
This is the self-defense mode you want. I’m not sure but it’s possible this was only available in model C and newer. It has a set emitter priority list and will automatically handoff and prepare to fire when left on. It only requires a launch command from the pilot.
POS-RUK can be use for a LOR shot. Your a/c, not the target, has to be close to the current STPT. (iirc I tested up to 20nm from current STPT) The STPT can be behind you with the target in front of you as long as it is less than 20nm. The >20nm could be greater. I quit test after the devs said atm, they were satisfy with the current model.
So in BMS, if you are heading north and a SA-6 pops up to the east on the RWR and you less than 20nm from current STPT you can fire the HARM and it will make wide radius turn toward the emitter. Or, on a clear day you can turn into the RWR bearing, maybe a little off-bore and wait for a visual launch to fire. I tested with the target in front of the a/c’s 3/9 line.
I believe this is because the HARM loft profile is dependent on range to steerpoint and so close to steer = little loft. Little loft = threat in seeker FOV and acquisition. I was successful in having an acquisition of a treat emitter in RUK with a steerpoint well beyond the target but only because I was at a low altitude and it didn’t loft too far above the close threat. I estimate that because the HARM turns like a pig that you could shoot a RUK with a steerpoint 90deg left/right and it would find an emitter dead ahead before it was able to change azimuth significantly. If the loft could be disabled or countered I bet RUK could be a very workable “HARM maddog” no matter where the steerpoint is located.
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thanks for the info. is it safe to assume there is no self-defense type of mode implemented in BMS?
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I definitely see a point in employing HARMs as self defense weapons, though I have yet to encounter a scenario in which this would be required as I always keep an eye on my HAD screen and don’t provoke SAM sites by flying close unless I’m committed to an attack.
If you want to set up your plane for a really quick response time, I’d say go into A-G mode, use the override function on the FCR to bring it from ground mapping to A-A mode, and bring up your HAD instead of your HSD with HARMs selected. If you see something popping up on your HAD screen that engages you, simply slew the cursor to it, fire and take evasive actions. Shouldn’t take more than a second or two, and I can see how it’d pay off against modern SAM systems, as they’ll either have to refrain from lobbing another SAM at you, or even have their targeting radar turned on or take a HARM down the chimney like it’s Santa Claus.
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I believe this is because the HARM loft profile is dependent on range to steerpoint and so close to steer = little loft. Little loft = threat in seeker FOV and acquisition. I was successful in having an acquisition of a treat emitter in RUK with a steerpoint well beyond the target but only because I was at a low altitude and it didn’t loft too far above the close threat. I estimate that because the HARM turns like a pig that you could shoot a RUK with a steerpoint 90deg left/right and it would find an emitter dead ahead before it was able to change azimuth significantly. If the loft could be disabled or countered I bet RUK could be a very workable “HARM maddog” no matter where the steerpoint is located.
I think it’s only based on STPT range. It’s some where between 30nm and 60nm that decides that the HARM loft to the STPT or goes active.
In r/l LOR I think the RWR hands off a vector (and maybe a target type) to the HARM and set the seeker in RUK mode. Then makes hard turn into the vector. <shrug>We only have bits of info on the subject.
I kind of think that PB, RUK, EOM are missile seeker modes.
POS uses PB, EOM, RUK
HAD uses??? switch to EOM if the seeker drops lock.
LOR uses RUK
HAD uses all, depending on how the target was acquired.thanks for the info. is it safe to assume there is no self-defense type of mode implemented in BMS?
If STPT were place every 30nm RUK could be used as LOR. Just beware of the off-bore shot. The SAM will win the race. Not a great workaround <shrug>However, the SAM are not nasty enough in BMS to need a SP mode. imo</shrug></shrug>