Redflag RP5 V5.0 Preview
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@A.S:
Community is big with alot of talents… just keep a door open…and you never know you might come in
Our door is open. And don’t think we are not getting joining requests from people, but it’s not enough to know c++ or having some ideas. If someone wants to join and can contribute really, the RV abandoned code is still floating somewhere… and in many many areas it’s same or similar to what’s in BMS…
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If I may add something to this discussion, I think, we have not yet entirely explored all there is to full visual potential of existing Falcon tiled terrain engine. What I mean here is to move more aggressively towards trying to populate terrain with 3D elements using existing and available tools and methods like Terrain Editor and BMS Editor, etc.
I admit, this also requires quite extensive manpower, but this could be perhaps accomplished (or at least better explored), by encouraging other members of this community to dive into using these tools for their own fun. Having said this, I realize that introduction of new 3D elements requires rather complex and tedious edits to DB, which is tricky and needs to be carefully coordinated. There is issue of leveled positioning of the objects related to L2 height model (discussed in depth above), and last but not the least, we still are limited to 4096 tiles.
Those are unfortunately impediments, but venturing into unexplored waters of the “new terrain engine” could be also pretty risky time and resource investment.
As an example of unfortunate failure of new terrain engine to make significant progress or change, I would point to Strike Fighters Project 1/2 and then SFP2 North Atlantic by Third Wire. The first was “traditional” tiled engine on height mesh, but with pretty robust and intuitive tools to add 3D elements. The second entirely new concept of 3dsMax sculpted terrain with various texturing and 3D elements that could be added on top of that. From whatever reason that 1st method produced rather significant number of various successful and pretty looking terrain mods, in the the 2nd the opposite was rather the truth.
I do not know all the details and neither I am aware of true current status of it, but i was active member of terrain modding community for SFP1, where I knew and truly enjoyed the process and tools Then I left elsewhere, but often just read the opinions and comments about new engine by people I knew on their forum. It was my understanding, that 2nd version of terrain just did not excited grass roots of community and eventually Third Wire has been moving from PC to tablets, or even the consoles virtually shutting the lights off on the Project.
So it is also my opinion to be rather conservative and just try to improve and explore further, what is already available and working. My 2c.
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So it is also my opinion to be rather conservative and just try to improve and explore further, what is already available and working. My 2c.
Agree!
I have looked into this matter also deeper back in days. By doing so i have experimented with tools like:
- Wold Machine Professional
- Ultimate Map Downlaoder
- Tiled
- Terragen 2/3
- SBuilder
- Map Tiler Google
- Gobal Mapper
- FSEarth Tiles
- FeatureMaker (Cate add-on)
- AVISMap
- QGIS
- ArcGIS
and came to the conclusion, that the creation of new individual terrain (even with tools allowing efficient working) is the wrong path. Why? Because every data required such as textures or elevations are already realistically stored by someone and available on the net one or the other way.
Tileproxy (used in FSX) is an excellent EXAMPLE how easily* and quickly that data can be implemented into a sim. All what Tileproxy does is connecting to a defined satelite-service and downlaods and implements the REAL TEXTURES AND REAL ELEVATION ON THE FLY into your sim (good i-net required). It can cut the tiles on its own in the right sizes, cache and load them. Same with elevation data or the “fabrik”, and the results are amazing. Gentlemen, i repeat…it does it in REALTIME and FPS is not “dead” at all. In BMS we can even expect better FPS results, because BMS only needs L2 textures…whereas FSX goes from L0 to L20 (i think) … similar to what fartiles does. But fartiles (as we found out) we don´t need anyways.
I ask myself, if a simple tool can produce such results in real-time or on the fly, why should it not be possible to store that data (as tileproxy caches only - unless hacked) and create a theater from it? Till here everything is possible … THE PROBLEM is the implementation in the right format into BMS. The limitations of Only 1000m mesh & Only 4096 Tiles… is what “kills” any approach in that direction. Simple as that. Thats it.
We dont need a new gfx engine, all we need is a tweak in the current one, so we can use 10m mesh and more unique tiles. ONLY that tweak alone (if doable…and i believe it should be) is all we need to produce REAL OMG FTW TERRAIN.
Once that acheived, even REAL objectives and ROADS and RIVERS can be implemented/imported with other available tools or sources (like ArcGis). We would probably have to look for (or create) correct format-conversions or -tools, but thats a minor obstacle.
What we need is someone able to open the code… look at the structure and see if tweaks can be made in that direction without corrupting the functionality of the campaign-engine or ground- or air-tasking-manager …etc …so the units understand the new environment properly.
That is really all we would require. I hope this post is inspirational for any BMS Dev out there …who is able to “read” that part of the code.
If words can´t inspire…maybe pictures can … (what we are looking at in the video is a tool, downlaoding elevations from google-maps (or other source) … and getting the textures from the same source while “plastering” those of the produced elevation grid - in real time)
Note: satelite-service textures are often copyright protected, but one can also purchase for specific areas. This is why Tileproxy only caches and doesn´t store the textures on the harddrive (well unless hacked of course).
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I have to say I can live with upgraded terrain even it takes 2-3 years while none of other code related parts does not get major improvmentes. A better terrain whould have very strong impact on tactical environment either if the shape of terrain well model the radar LOS.
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I have to say I can live with upgraded terrain even it takes 2-3 years while none of other code related parts does not get major improvmentes. A better terrain whould have very strong impact on tactical environment either if the shape of terrain well model the radar LOS.
It´s frustrating to fly the “best” jet combat simulator out there …and to see other arcadian products having superior terrains. If there is any sim deserving (literally) what we see in that video above …its BMS.
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@A.S:
It´s frustrating to fly the “best” jet combat simulator out there …and to see other arcadian products having superior terrains. If there is any sim deserving (literally) what we see in that video above …its BMS.
I think 100% the same.
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A.S, FYI Blueprint which is BMS GFX engine dev, decided to limit the mesh to 1000m limit because the 250m (which is available with L0) is too much of a killer with current terrain engine and current GFX code. So I believe 10m is literally impossible
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It´s frustrating to fly the “best” jet combat simulator out there …and to see other arcadian products having superior terrains. If there is any sim deserving (literally) what we see in that video above …its BMS.
Denpends on personal POV.
For me, it is frustrating to fly the “best” jet combat simulator out there, and not being able to hear the Com1 and the Com2 radio traffic at the same time.
… Can have thousands of differente versions …
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@A.S:
Once that acheived, even REAL objectives and ROADS and RIVERS can be implemented/imported with other available tools or sources (like ArcGis). We would probably have to look for (or create) correct format-conversions or -tools, but thats a minor obstacle.
Well this u could it and now… u just don’t have the tool… we use the old tool. If there was a new tool u could. There is no need for Falcon code for this.
About downloading online the terrain well not the way to go… having it on the disc is the way… else MP will be a Pita.
In general since the ppl in BMS team are limited and they r focused mainly on the developing of the sim code only this is a draw back for the rest of community development regardless of the more detailed terrain mesh implementation or the 4096 tiles limitation.
There should be a team of coders to create new tools for theater development. One good example is Falcon Editor but doesn’t cover the whole subject.
So making new adjustments on the structure should go along with new tools to use those adjustments more efficiently and quickly.
Sure if no such tools are provided and we have new features we will use the current tools like we do now.
But as a “joke” also BMS team has new tools to develop (newer versions of programming language… libraries, frameworks etc…) we (moders - theater developers) r stack on the old tools… We want candy too… :lol:
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A.S, FYI Blueprint which is BMS GFX engine dev, decided to limit the mesh to 1000m limit because the 250m (which is available with L0) is too much of a killer with current terrain engine and current GFX code. So I believe 10m is literally impossible
hmmm… thanks for pointig me… i will try to have a chat with him…who knows.
For me it doesn´t makes sense to loose FPS just because of a more defined blank terrain “frame” or “grid” while the textures are kept in the same size as before (L2). That actually was the whole idea (trick). If we would use tiles for each new “plane” created instead (more smaller tiles)…yeah that would be silly …and kill alot of FPS. https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?19146-Redflag-RP5-V5-0-Preview&p=276443&viewfull=1#post276443Gents…before this goes south here again… … its just an idea i propose. If possbile… ok…if not …**** it.
But i don´t emprace excuses…i embrace solutions. 6-7 years back even BMS was “impossible” for many and those who yalled loudest “bouuh will never work” enjoy it now the most.Arty: About downloading online the terrain well not the way to go… having it on the disc is the way… else MP will be a Pita.
@Arty: im not talking about downlaoding in real time for BMS. That is what tileproxy does… as an example - read again.
A.S: I ask myself, if a simple tool can produce such results in real-time or on the fly, why should it not be possible to store that data (as tileproxy caches only - unless hacked) and create a theater from it?
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Well AS those guys have the tools to do the math and decide what is a killer or not, we don’t… we just see others and drull and want…
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Well AS those guys have the tools to do the math and decide what is a killer or not, we don’t… we just see others and drull and want…
You were born as a baby with the same brain as them We (or i) dont drull and want …i try to find compromized solutions for all of us to make things better.
If there is a way…lets find it…if not…let´s move on, but don´t give up becuase your are “powerless”.“Humans communicate with language… animals by sniffing their butts” (an old saying).
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Gents…before this goes south here again… …
IMHO this is already pointing there… Many interesting things and opinions have been exchanged in this thread and they need some time to be absorbed. Please do not drag it to the level of personalized ugly argument. If this is for me to reach too far to say such a things, forgive me, but my name and my pretty hard work also is involved here. I’ll leave then things to the power of moderation.
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@A.S:
You were born as a baby with the same brain as them We (or i) dont drull and want …i try to find compromized solutions for all of us to make things better.
If there is a way…lets find it… but don´t give up becuase your are “powerless”. “Humans communicate with language… animals by sniffing their butts” (an old saying).I just mentioned that BMS guys have the code, tools and means to test and tell if your suggestions (which are not new, they where done long before u got in to Falcon…) are doable or not… Blueprint is on it from the very very beginning…
And u r doing nothing more then talk actually… If u want to find the solution for your suggestions get the RV code do what u say and prove that it works ok…
We all want the same thing and try to help eachother for the best you also where born as a baby with the same brain as them, didn’t see a we there and troubled me…
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And u r doing nothing more then talk actually…
Then don´t use the redflag 5 theater….because its just “talk”
And don´t use Falcon Online, because it is only “talk” too. (oh, i forgot…you can´t).Arty, i did not offend you. You are interpreting too much into things before you reply.
Look. We all can find thousands of reasons in life why certain things don´t work. But its not about that. It is about finding the one reason why it can(might) work.
Demanding and complaining doesn´t help anyone - the least yourself. But participating and contributing does. -
@A.S:
hmmm… thanks for pointig me… i will try to have a chat with him…who knows.
For me it doesn´t makes sense to loose FPS just because of a more defined blank terrain “frame” or “grid” while the textures are kept in the same size as before (L2). That actually was the whole idea (trick). If we would use tiles for each new “plane” created instead (more smaller tiles)…yeah that would be silly …and kill alot of FPS. https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?19146-Redflag-RP5-V5-0-Preview&p=276443&viewfull=1#post276443A.S I don’t understand what you mean by that example… if you think the FPS hit is from tiles then you are wrong. Tiles will cause FPS hit if the texture size is too big for example which may cause more swaps for the V-card and will eventually affect FPS. The terrain resolution is the “heavy duty” stuff in this regard. 10m resolution simply requires more triangles calculations and so will be heavier than a 1000m res, think the same as you have a 100K poly model and a 1K one, now multiply it with the size of the terrain that you see in a scene.
Terrain engine is exactly something that should answer all this questions, manage lowest resolution at low altitudes and smart enough to create relatively smooth transitions for far terrain when full res isn’t necessary.
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@ I-Hawk.
The idea is simple:
- keep the textures size in L2 (1000m x 1000m) and don´t create smaller or bigger ones (no changes here)
- allow more than 4096 unique textures to be used, so we can consider covering a whole theater with indiviual textures instead of repeating patterns
- reduce elevation grid (or mesh) from 1000m (which is 1980 or older style tbh) to at least something more appropiate (like 50m or 100m)
Mind you (i dont know if you fly FSX)… THEIR elevation mesh can even go down to .30cm and with modern PCs (around 2 years old)… FPS is great !
If we take real textures from google map right now… and place them into BMS with only 1000m elv. mesh, the texture attributes don´t match with the low 1000m elv. mesh and we get again rivers flowing uphill and downhill or cities “hanging” in declined hills etc etc. It looks “squeezed” and “fake”.
Photoreal textures with wrong elevation data doesn´t match up. Photoreal textures only work nicely if appropiate elevation resolution is possible.
I am not proposing to change the size of TEXTURES … no, keep the same size you have now - Same texture size and tile-sets.
ONLY (if possible) re-code the ELEVATION DEFINTION to 50m or 100m for L0 or L2 …whatever you like and consider the AI understands it too.
Fartiles you still can kick out (as it is now) - no need and saves FPS.Once that is achieved…THEN we can litterally IMPORT … TEXTURES AND ELEVATION from the internet and create much more realistic terrain for BMS. We know how to do it, but we are limited by:
- only 4096 unique tiles, thus repetitions required
- only 1000m elevation resolution
Those 2 things cut us off in the creation of amazing looking terrain (forget what you see in redflag 5.0 preview pictures, because once that is possible… terrain can be much much better than the pictures shown in 1st post)
As you can see in the first post of this thread…Polak did an amazing job on the textures… i worked like an idiot on the WHOLE elevations for korea…making 250.000 tiles manually by hand (i had to, so it makes sense with textures used)BUT!!! we can DO EVEN BETTER THAN THIS, IF …those two limiations change.
My thoughts go towards “maybe we can utilize what we already have in better ways (with tweaks), instead of considering the creation of a whole new gfx-terrain engine”
Note: most DEVs (so i figured) haven´t even tried Redflag 4.0 as most don´t have 4.32 installed anymore for long. Once you see the textures+elevation is Redflag 5.0 … you will get the idea. At this point remember this what i wrote above… WE CAN DO MUCH BETTER, IF …those two limitations change (or look at that tileproxy video above).
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always divide by 2 in Falcon world - so 1000m -> 500m -> 250m (L0) -> 125 m -> 62.5m -> 31.25 -> 16,625 m …etc…. are possible mesh subdivisions
BTW I like 1km patch, it is 90ths technology …80ths to early 90th is flat terrain with pyramid/hill objects (wireframe or solid) -
In the first step somebody pls. explain why had to give up the much more deteailed terrain of OF… I did not caused any FPS issue…