Instrument landing system localizer off?
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…. you cannot use the HUD and a STPT diamond to accurately determine your position above or below a glideslope. Yes, it worked, but he could not have referenced the HUD to see that he was for example 150 feet low, or 100 feet too high, for instance. …
Sorry, lost me. Did someone say you could use a mark point for a precision approach?
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This post is deleted! -
Parsing words to try to support a particular point of view …. or ignore the point of view of others.
It is 100% obvious to eveyone that a markpoint does not ‘transmit’ anything … no direction nor any glideslope. It’s just a reference mark on the ground.
Can you use OTHER systems to fly to that reference mark? Yes. Can you use and HSI to set a heading that may indicate a runway at that reference mark? Yes. Can you drop gear, align to the HSI or runway heading and put your HUD 3* reference line on the nav diamond that represents that mark? Yes.
Does all that get to a position to land? Assuming all is ‘good’, sure, maybe. Is it ‘proper’? No.
Did the mark give you course and glideslope. No, not really. It is after all just an imaginary mark on the ground.
The mark stpt is placed on the end of the runway. You can’t see the runway but you can see the mark stpt.
Knowing this all you have to do is place the diamond on the pitch ladder. Put on 2.5 or 3* you got glideslope.I don’t know if he used the HSI. I’ve done it with and without HSI on impossible xwind te/
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Sorry, lost me. Did someone say you could use a mark point for a precision approach?
How do you do a TACAN approach are they inline with runway? In F4 the TACAN beacon is off to the side of the runway.
No, I was just pointing out that its not like a TACAN approach is a precision approach. ILS is considered a precision approach. If we could get ATC to talk us in like in Precision Approach RADAR, that would be another example.
He used the HUD and mark STPT for glideslope information.
I was also wanting to point out that using the HUD and location of a STPT diamond in the HUD does not constitute glideslope information.
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I was also wanting to point out that using the HUD and location of a STPT diamond in the HUD does not constitute glideslope information.
not legally. but for a non precision approach……
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The mark stpt is placed on the end of the runway. You can’t see the runway but you can see the mark stpt.
Knowing this all you have to do is place the diamond on the pitch ladder. Put on 2.5 or 3* you got glideslope.I don’t know if he used the HSI. I’ve done it with and without HSI on impossible xwind te/
No, you know your relative position from the runway. This is not your position relative to the glideslope, and it is once again subject to a fair bit of error from a variety of sources.
No one is arguing about the possibility of doing so, Caper. The only argument is whether it is an acceptable practice for it to be a valid approach - and no one is arguing that either, aside from you.
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not legally. but for a non precision approach……
for a non precision approach, you do not fly a glideslope. In a non precision approach, you step down in blocks as you get closer to the field. So you might know that after DME 20, you can safely descend to 3000 ft AMSL, and that after DME 10 you can descend to 1500 ft AMSL, and 700 feet after DME 5…
You cannot fly a constant slope though, you descend to the new block then wait for the next distance you can descend at. You have this stuff already in your approach charts, which are included in your BMS install folder…
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But at DME 6 no more step, you have to fly a glideslope.
Also remember that the same thing that draws the diamond on the HUD is the same thing that puts your bombs on target. SPI stuff I think. Check out landing video with stpt on the runway. It looks possible imo.
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No matter how you turn it, IRL, this kind of approach is inherently flawed for several reason.
- GPS precision is not optimal. Error is inside 10m most of the time, but 10m can be a lot on a runway threshold.
- GPS is not perfect : you can have interferences on the signal, not be able to see enough satellites, etc…
- without a regular GPS fix, INS can drift. Usual figure is 1 NM per hour, so 100 ft per minute. Again, on a runway threshold, thats a lot…
And most importantly, an ILS slope & course will be verified by ground crews, so its reliability is fairly certain. But you have absolutely no way to realize your GPS/INS data is faulty before actually seeing the runway.
In F4, these imprefections are not modeled (yet ?). Whether in AF or BMS.
So this kind of approach might be useful in an EMERGENCY, but it cannot be a regular RL procedure. Just as its perfectly normal that it does work in F4, as all these errors are not modeled.
With that in mind, do what you want for your approaches.
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for a non precision approach, you do not fly a glideslope…
What about VASI or PAPI(?). That does slideslope is that an example of an non precision approach?
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The mark stpt is placed on the end of the runway. You can’t see the runway but you can see the mark stpt.
Knowing this all you have to do is place the diamond on the pitch ladder. Put on 2.5 or 3* you got glideslope.I don’t know if he used the HSI. I’ve done it with and without HSI on impossible xwind te/
I understand how it’s done. The question is whether a markpoint is providing any radio-navigation information. It is not. It’s just a reference mark to assist finding a spot on the ground. You can use that in many ways.
TACAN/ILS on the other hand DO provide direct radio-navigation guidance including direction, distance, heading and glide path. They send that information to you. A mark point does not.
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VASI and PAPI are VFR indicators. If you can see those, you are visual and can transition to heads up flying.
If you get to DME 6, and you do not have an ILS intercept, then you cannot fly a psuedo approach - at least, not whilst keeping your SQ/CC happy about you following the regs.
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I understand how it’s done. The question is whether a markpoint is providing any radio-navigation information. It is not. It’s just a reference mark to assist finding a spot on the ground. You can use that in many ways.
TACAN/ILS on the other hand DO provide direct radio-navigation guidance including direction, distance, heading and glide path. They send that information to you. A mark point does not.
FWIW,
HSI in NAV mode(EGI/INS/GPS) does everything that TCN(radio beacons) mode does. Two big differences, NAV mode works in RF silence. TCN DME does not.
NAV mode is not limited to beacon radio range..
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three big differences.
TCN is approved for use for RNAV and TCN approaches. EGI on the other hand, is not approved for RNAV or GPS approaches.
You keep ignoring the point caper - its not about how it works, its about a boring piece of paper that says you are not allowed to do it.
PSST: If you wanna do it in falcon, I won’t tell anyone and word shouldnt get back to your CO.
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Read my previous post, this is why IRL, TACAN & ILS are considered reliable and thus legal, and why INS & GPS method are neither :
No matter how you turn it, IRL, this kind of approach is inherently flawed for several reason.
[…]In F4, the limitations of GPS and INS disappear, thats why it works. Even though, I prefer to fly by the RL procedures. Now have it your way.
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for a non precision approach, you do not fly a glideslope. In a non precision approach, you step down in blocks as you get closer to the field. So you might know that after DME 20, you can safely descend to 3000 ft AMSL, and that after DME 10 you can descend to 1500 ft AMSL, and 700 feet after DME 5…
You cannot fly a constant slope though, you descend to the new block then wait for the next distance you can descend at. You have this stuff already in your approach charts, which are included in your BMS install folder…
Hi there mate.
Well it seemed that you have a small confusion.
First in a non precision approach you can fly a slope! We maybe don’t call it “GlideSlope” in order (i guess) to not been confused with the Slope of ILS approach, but you can fly a slope. Just like the below example.
Also in a non precision approach you CAN have a constant slope (descending), and not only at TACAN or VORTAC or VOR/DME approaches but and at RNAV/GPS approaches.
Take a look at the below official chart (RNAV/GPS) for RWY 26 of Langley AFB.
Take a good look at the VDA that is 2.72 deg. You can also make the check calculations to verify that from FAF (BALIF) until and THR of RWY 26 the descent has a constant slope of 288 FT/NM or 2.72 deg.
It is just a matter of the conditions if a department create the procedure with a constant slope or not, and NOT that this never applied.
Nikos. -
The difference between precision approach and non-precision approach is if the radio navigation aid gives vertical guidance information. This has nothing to do with the actual path you fly. You can fly a VOR approach perfectly smooth in glide angle as long as you comply with the altitude restrictions at each fix and it’s technically legal to fly a staircase descent inside the ILS GS as long as you stay inside 50% needle deflection.
As for flying with whatever sensor you want. This is not how it works in reality. It doesn’t matter if your system is good enough or if your mommy thinks you are handsome or if it works. When ATC says you are cleared to fly a published approach by name, they mean that approach EXACTLY as written. No substitutions allowed at all. Being creative gets you no friends. Imagine if a cop pulls you over and you hand him a driver’s license that you made yourself at home. It’s not going to go over well no matter how good your penmanship
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TCN is approved for use for RNAV and TCN approaches. .
TCN will get you to the glideslope. What visibility do you need for a TACAN approach…5nm? I seen the beacon in middle of corn fields no where near the runway.
ILS is 1/4nm visibility me thinks. -
But at DME 6 no more step, you have to fly a glideslope.
you have to fly a computed vertical speed in relation to your GS until minimums or MAPT.
Caper … stop BS please … you really do know nothing about the subject.
Even you description about the markpoint tip is wrong! (to work, you have to put the markpoint on runway entry, not at the end!)
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you have to fly a computed vertical speed in relation to your GS until minimums or MAPT.
Caper … stop BS please … you really do know nothing about the subject.
Even you description about the markpoint tip is wrong! (to work, you have to put the markpoint on runway entry, not at the end!)
So, you fly the VVI? That half of it. How do you know you’re heading into the tower?
DJ you need to chill and use some intuition.