Go for SA-2 or SA-2 Site
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Sure about that? Everything I’ve read says it’s the Bar Lock.
Tac Ref shows both radar systems are used by the SA-5.
How 'bout we call it a draw?
S-200 SA-5 GAMMON
The S-200 SA-5 GAMMON is a medium to high -altitude surface-to-air missile system. The single-stage missile has four jettisonable, wraparound solid propellant boosters, each of which is is 4.9 m long and 0.48 m in diameter with a single fin spanning 0.35 m from the booster body. The missile is 10.72 m long overall with a wing span of 2.85 m. The main body is 0.85 m in diameter and has a solid fuel dual thrust sustainer rocket motor.
Each missile battalion has one 320 km range P-35M BARLOCK-B E/F-band target search and acquisition radar with an integral D-band IFF system, one 270 km range SQUARE PAIR H-band missile guidance radar, and six trainable semi-fixed single rail launchers.The missile’s minimum range of 60 km is due to the booster burn time and jettison requirements, limiting the system to engagements against relatively large unmaneuverable targets at ranges up to 250 km. Guidance beyond the 60 km booster jettison point is by course correction command signals from the SQUARE PAIR radar with the S-200’s own active radar terminal homing seeker head activated near the projected intercept point for final guidance.
The large HE warhead is detonated either by a command signal or the onboard proximity fusing system. When fitted with a nuclear warhead only the command detonation option is used.
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There are a number of SAM’s that use (at least) two radars …. one for search/track and on for guidance. That isn’t modeled as far as I can tell, so only 1 Radar type is assigned to BMS SAM’s.
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Sorry for having taken the topic so off topic
Exactly as agave says, the Bar Lock is a E/F band search radar, normally attached to SA5 sites or used as a standalone EW plattaform. Search radars are not currently modeled in F4.
The Square Pair is the fire control CW illuminator for the SA5’s SARH missiles.
Not that it makes a difference to have one or the other in the sim… it is just a 3D model
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Ah, my bad. I thought the Bar Lock was an FCR.
There are a number of SAM’s that use (at least) two radars …. one for search/track and on for guidance. That isn’t modeled as far as I can tell, so only 1 Radar type is assigned to BMS SAM’s.
You sure? From what I’ve experienced, there always seems to be an S symbol in close proximity to every SAM site I find in BMS.
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You sure? From what I’ve experienced, there always seems to be an S symbol in close proximity to every SAM site I find in BMS.
This might be because SAM sites are usually placed around high value assets - like Airfields or Radar Warning sites.
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Ah, my bad. I thought the Bar Lock was an FCR.
You sure? From what I’ve experienced, there always seems to be an S symbol in close proximity to every SAM site I find in BMS.
Allow me to re-phrase my thought/opinion: The way BMS is currently modeled only requires us to defeat/disable 1 particular radar type per SAM site in order to render that SAM site useless.
Circumstantial proof of this lies in the fact that if you disable the “S” search radar, you’ll still be engaged by the SAM, but if you disable the battalion ‘embedded’ radar, the SAM will not engage.
…. multi-unit TELAR’s excepted as each TELAR vehicle needs defeated individually.
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It appears in BMS at times that the S search radar gains initial contact and then passes off some information to the SAM radar which then goes live when danger close approximately 10 miles. Otherwise its too easy to destroy the SAM radar using Harms in standoff long distance ranges. The danger is when the SAM goes live and I have no air to ground weapons loaded hence getting out of there quickly is the best option. The SAM units including radars on airbases are often spread out and hard to find except for Harms which will target the missile guidance as compared to SAM units occupying a position which are easy to destroy the entire unit with a JSOW. The SAM units will respawn with a new radar often unless the unit has been totally destroyed which can be verified in the intel screen as they have “surrendered”.
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Sorry for having taken the topic so off topic
Exactly as agave says, the Bar Lock is a E/F band search radar, normally attached to SA5 sites or used as a standalone EW plattaform. Search radars are not currently modeled in F4.
F4AF modeled a EWS that worked well with the SA-10 SA-6. SAM did not go into search/acquisition mode until the target was in high pk range. This keeps a newbees from shooting them with a 70nm -88. SA-3 and SA-2 are knows fix sam installations, so they were in search mode all the time. No reason to be stealthty.
iirc the AF SA-5 was in search mode all the time. Range was greater than the -88. However, ECM was effective.
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IMHO the different type of SAM site objetives long time ago should be renamed as “SAM site type 1” or similar things to avoid confusion.
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It appears in BMS at times that the S search radar gains initial contact and then passes off some information to the SAM radar which then goes live when danger close approximately 10 miles. Otherwise its too easy to destroy the SAM radar using Harms in standoff long distance ranges. The danger is when the SAM goes live and I have no air to ground weapons loaded hence getting out of there quickly is the best option. The SAM units including radars on airbases are often spread out and hard to find except for Harms which will target the missile guidance as compared to SAM units occupying a position which are easy to destroy the entire unit with a JSOW. The SAM units will respawn with a new radar often unless the unit has been totally destroyed which can be verified in the intel screen as they have “surrendered”.
Not exactly as I know. In radar dat files you simply can see distances where the search and tracking changes and all state the different RWR symbol is defined but simply all fire constrol radar does not have ‘S’ symbol is search state. In some previous Falcon version SAMs had two radars but it was simply pointless because of slot/battalion system. If you kill the vehicles in slot which assigned as radar no one of radar ever went online, the search radar does not emit in case you destroy the fire control radar. If you assign the search radar as slot and you destroy it the SAM never will launch any missiles because lack of radar. Sadly this system prevents lots of things but a with a little trick you can make a little more the modeling as long as the player does not not what is in DB.
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Allow me to re-phrase my thought/opinion: The way BMS is currently modeled only requires us to defeat/disable 1 particular radar type per SAM site in order to render that SAM site useless.
Circumstantial proof of this lies in the fact that if you disable the “S” search radar, you’ll still be engaged by the SAM, but if you disable the battalion ‘embedded’ radar, the SAM will not engage.
Well, there’s a huge difference between the search radar and the targeting radar. Knock out the search radar and the SAM crew can simply phone a back up search radar. Knock out the targeting radar, and they simply can’t launch (possible exceptions regarding late generation SAM systems like SA-10, not as up to date on those).
Though tbh, I’m really getting the feeling here that you meant something else than I responded to…
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SA5s FCR is actually Square Pair but in BMS for some reason we have a Bar Lock since the original F4 release
Falcon simply does not model the reality. In RL older Soviet/Russian SAMs had three radars.
Long range EW radar. It cannot measure altitude typically with m or dm wavelenght.
Height finder radar m or dm wavelenght.
Fire control radar dm or a bit smaller wavelenght.Falcon is not able even model the long range EW + FCR combo not mentioning the heigh finder radar, and as well as many other features…
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How would any of this work with like, an SA-17 battery? Every vehicle in an SA-17 is supposed to have it’s own radar. If you blow up whichever one is slotted as the radar will the entire battery stop firing?
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Well, there’s a huge difference between the search radar and the targeting radar. Knock out the search radar and the SAM crew can simply phone a back up search radar. Knock out the targeting radar, and they simply can’t launch (possible exceptions regarding late generation SAM systems like SA-10, not as up to date on those).
Though tbh, I’m really getting the feeling here that you meant something else than I responded to…
Leave the SA-2, SA-3, SA-4 and SA-5 battalion radars alone. Go kill all the search radars. Fly into the WEZ of one of the SA-2, 3, 4, 5 or 6’s battalions. Report your result …. they shoot at you.
Conversely, leave all the search radar alone. Go kill all the radars embedded in the SA-2, 3, 4, & 5 battalions. Fly into the WEZ of said SA-2, 3, 4, 5 & 6. Report your result … they don’t shoot at you.
(i.e., Fansongs, Low Blows, Long Track, Bar Lock & Straight Flush)
I’m talking what does/doesn’t work flying BMS … I fly a desk, not an F-16 in a war zone.
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How would any of this work with like, an SA-17 battery? Every vehicle in an SA-17 is supposed to have it’s own radar. If you blow up whichever one is slotted as the radar will the entire battery stop firing?
No …. see my caveat on TELAR … Transporter, Erector, Launcher And Radar. Fully integrated units. You must destroy each one individually.
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How would any of this work with like, an SA-17 battery? Every vehicle in an SA-17 is supposed to have it’s own radar. If you blow up whichever one is slotted as the radar will the entire battery stop firing?
It can be doable. If you wish to know how I can write a PM about but for players it is better to not know it. This is what I have done in my MOD. You have to kill all TELAR to eliminate an SA-11/17 battery.
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F4AF modeled a EWS that worked well with the SA-10 SA-6. SAM did not go into search/acquisition mode until the target was in high pk range. This keeps a newbees from shooting them with a 70nm -88. SA-3 and SA-2 are knows fix sam installations, so they were in search mode all the time. No reason to be stealthty.
iirc the AF SA-5 was in search mode all the time. Range was greater than the -88. However, ECM was effective.
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Without going too much into the insight of how this is modeled, as doing so ruins the realism of the sim for the end-user IMO, this behavior has been in legacy falcon since SP3 as well. If a SAM is within the envelope of a longer range SAM it will stay silent until it is in range to acquire you.Anyway, I bet that many of the things we are discussing in this thread will be obsolete soon!
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Leave the SA-2, SA-3, SA-4 and SA-5 battalion radars alone. Go kill all the search radars. Fly into the WEZ of one of the SA-2, 3, 4, 5 or 6’s battalions. Report your result …. they shoot at you.
Conversely, leave all the search radar alone. Go kill all the radars embedded in the SA-2, 3, 4, & 5 battalions. Fly into the WEZ of said SA-2, 3, 4, 5 & 6. Report your result … they don’t shoot at you.
(i.e., Fansongs, Low Blows, Long Track, Bar Lock & Straight Flush)
I’m talking what does/doesn’t work flying BMS … I fly a desk, not an F-16 in a war zone.
IADS should be design to protect the search radars against long range ARM and NOE attacks. There could be CAP and low level ambush a/c CAP in the game. However, in r/l, north Korea does not have a good force. What they have is a bunch of surface to surface missiles that are pointing at South Korea. If NATO crosses the FLOT, no more airbases, no more cities. The F4 battle field is design to feature the F-16’s abilities not r/l war.
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However, in r/l, north Korea does not have a good force
The definitely are very convinced of the opposite
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IADS ……
IADS? Does BMS model IADS? If not, what difference does IADS make? …. .
Regardless, in BMS, kill the Fansong/Low Blow/Bar Lock, etc. = toothless SAM site. That’s the simple fact.