When is air to air refueling practical in a campaign?
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Yep … and I am still “fighting” with my team friends to implement this (unusable fuel and engine flame out before the gauge reach 00000)
Not for the 4.33 … hopefully, maybe later … (?)
Good to see that we finally agree on something! [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]
Off-topic.
Once I was witness of an emergency divert of several F-5Bs
One of the jets flamed out one of the engines on final, and the other engine right after clearing the rwy. IIRC the fuel indicator read over 200lbs and reserve fuel for F-5 was either 500lbs or 800lbs, I can’t exactly remember.
Nasty situation… I think those guys sweated quite a bit during 25 minutes that the divert took. -
Hmm. See I thought from the way the -1-1s describe it, that that unusable fuel is not included in the weight of fuel displayed by the totalizer.
Guess I have something else to reread tonight then.
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Hmm. See I thought from the way the -1-1s describe it, that that unusable fuel is not included in the weight of fuel displayed by the totalizer.
Guess I have something else to reread tonight then.
You are right about that. For sure in the f18 the fuel quantity indicator indicates useable fuel. I am pretty sure in the f16 is the same.
BUT, that does not mean that the engines will be able to run until the indicator reads zero.
ironic, but true. I can’t remember the exact number, but engines could flame out for sure before it got to zero.
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What jcenzano said, The tanks are scavenged, but all the fuel isn’t pick up. You can run a jet bone dry and if we open the tanks there would still be fuel in them.
When you mentioned 50 lb I thought that was a very low figure, I would have imagined a few 100lb as a minimum.
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BUT, that does not mean that the engines will be able to run until the indicator reads zero.
100%
G’s, pressure, attitude might also be factor IMO.
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When you mentioned 50 lb I thought that was a very low figure, I would have imagined a few 100lb as a minimum.
In BMS right now, you can track you fuel pound by pound in the DED (LIST-> 2 (Bingo) ). Your engine will stop when you are at exactly 00000. At 00001, its still running.
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BUT, that does not mean that the engines will be able to run until the indicator reads zero.
ironic, but true. I can’t remember the exact number, but engines could flame out for sure before it got to zero.
The dash seems to indicate that flameouts are certainly possible before running out of useable fuel.
It describes flameouts as occurring either as a result of mechanical failure, or as a result of fuel starvation. If the fuel starvation is temporary, then an airstart is possible. If the fuel starvation is due to the reservoir tanks being empty, then an airstart is impossible.
Given the moniker usable fuel, and the imprecise nature of each aircraft not having exactly the same weights as each other, I would imagine the only issue with engines flaming out before 0 would be that the totalizer might not be perfectly calibrated to read the precise weight of fuel in the tank which can be used.
Additionally due to the manner in which the -1-1 divides up the weights - including unusuable fuel as part of the aircrafts basic weight, and usable fuel as a separate loading, I do not think that the totalizer reads the unusable fuel.
EDIT: Im a bit peeved that it is not made clearer in the dash, the exact nature of the F-16s fuel level sensing equipment. Any techies able to shed some light?
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I don’t know the specifics of the Viper but I can’t imagine any fuel totalizer can be completely accurate in all flight regimes. In other words, having some technically “usable” fuel in your tanks doesn’t mean that (even relatively normal) flight attitude or load factor can’t unport the fuel from the pumps. Maybe they should be more specific on what that limit is: I can recall on some civilian/GA flight manual I have read at some point there was warning about unporting fuel and cautions against excessive pitch or bank attitudes below a certain fuel level.
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I have read at some point there was warning about unporting fuel and cautions against excessive pitch or bank attitudes below a certain fuel level.
Just like in mine.
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Side note: Is it possible to refuel any of the probe/drogue (f-18 et.al.) receivers in BMS? The probe on the receiver extends, but will the tanker extend the drogues to you?
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No drogue, but it will ‘connect’ when the probe is in the ‘boom range’ …. kind of finger-tip to finger-tip.
Or something-else to something-else. I can never get that image out of my head.
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I don’t know the specifics of the Viper but I can’t imagine any fuel totalizer can be completely accurate in all flight regimes. In other words, having some technically “usable” fuel in your tanks doesn’t mean that (even relatively normal) flight attitude or load factor can’t unport the fuel from the pumps. Maybe they should be more specific on what that limit is: I can recall on some civilian/GA flight manual I have read at some point there was warning about unporting fuel and cautions against excessive pitch or bank attitudes below a certain fuel level.
The fuel system in the Viper is quite a bit more sophisticated than that of most GA aircraft, but even its manual advises that maneuvering can cause the totaliser to display incorrect values for a few seconds.
Maybe they should indeed, or, maybe it is in there and I am reading the wrong section. Lots of diagrams showing how things are connected to one another. Seems like as long as there is fuel in the FFP the engine should feed… but Im certainly no expert on the fuel system.
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Or something-else to something-else. I can never get that image out of my head.
And now Im sure, neither will the rest of us…
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Yep … and I am still “fighting” with my team friends to implement this (unusable fuel and engine flame out before the gauge reach 00000)
Not for the 4.33 … hopefully, maybe later … (?)
Any way to make this random if it is implemented?
The fuel system in the Viper is quite a bit more sophisticated than that of most GA aircraft, but even its manual advises that maneuvering can cause the totaliser to display incorrect values for a few seconds.
Maybe they should indeed, or, maybe it is in there and I am reading the wrong section. Lots of diagrams showing how things are connected to one another. Seems like as long as there is fuel in the FFP the engine should feed… but Im certainly no expert on the fuel system.
The fuel system was designed to not use boost pumps, but the air force wanted them added later on. The fuel system was suppose to be an all out siphoned system. The FFP is just a divider it doesn’t hold fuel, fuel passes through it. As long as there is fuel in the reservoirs the engine should work.
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Any way to make this random if it is implemented?
Of course, it is the whole point of this. Otherwise it would be useless.
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The dash seems to indicate that flameouts are certainly possible before running out of useable fuel.
It describes flameouts as occurring either as a result of mechanical failure, or as a result of fuel starvation. If the fuel starvation is temporary, then an airstart is possible. If the fuel starvation is due to the reservoir tanks being empty, then an airstart is impossible.
Given the moniker usable fuel, and the imprecise nature of each aircraft not having exactly the same weights as each other, I would imagine the only issue with engines flaming out before 0 would be that the totalizer might not be perfectly calibrated to read the precise weight of fuel in the tank which can be used.
Additionally due to the manner in which the -1-1 divides up the weights - including unusuable fuel as part of the aircrafts basic weight, and usable fuel as a separate loading, I do not think that the totalizer reads the unusable fuel.
EDIT: Im a bit peeved that it is not made clearer in the dash, the exact nature of the F-16s fuel level sensing equipment. Any techies able to shed some light?
Sorry, I guess I skipped over this the first time. The fuel probes do not touch the very bottom or top of the tanks, there is about 1/2 to 1 inch clearance. Depending on what tank we are talking about will indicate how much fuel can’t be measured in that tank. So with that being said you can see how all fuel onboard can’t be counted. If you look at a refueling or aircraft fuel system T.O. it’ll tell you that a clean jet will hold full fuel ±300 lbs. One jet might hold 7100 lbs and another might hold 7400 lbs. The totalizer reads all fuel on the jet, it can’t tell the difference between unusable fuel.
Of course, it is the whole point of this. Otherwise it would be useless.
Sweet, hope it works out then.
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Sorry, I guess I skipped over this the first time. The fuel probes do not touch the very bottom or top of the tanks, there is about 1/2 to 1 inch clearance. Depending on what tank we are talking about will indicate how much fuel can’t be measured in that tank. So with that being said you can see how all fuel onboard can’t be counted. If you look at a refueling or aircraft fuel system T.O. it’ll tell you that a clean jet will hold full fuel ±300 lbs. One jet might hold 7100 lbs and another might hold 7400 lbs. The totalizer reads all fuel on the jet, it can’t tell the difference between unusable fuel.
Sweet, hope it works out then.
Still looking out for an aircraft refueling T.O. so I have been referring to the dash one series of manuals… best reference I have the moment. The -1-1 measures configuration weight by including the unusable fuel as part of the jets empty weight - and it reckons that each aircraft has it somewhat different. Input?
The -1 itself doesnt really go into the difference between usable and unusable fuel - that I have found.
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Still looking out for an aircraft refueling T.O. so I have been referring to the dash one series of manuals… best reference I have the moment. The -1-1 measures configuration weight by including the unusable fuel as part of the jets empty weight - and it reckons that each aircraft has it somewhat different. Input?
The -1 itself doesnt really go into the difference between usable and unusable fuel - that I have found.
It probably won’t get that specific either. See if you can find a 1F-F16CG-GS, there is some good info in it.