IFF - Why so important?
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I leave a document that it may be nice to read explaining some things about the IFF (IFF.doc)
Thank you but this is not really useful. this is a very old document.
We know how IFF works IRL does. No problem for that.
The question is how to implement that in the simulator. Interaction with IA, When should it be on and when should it be off. Which mode to use … 1 2 3 or 4 or altogether.
How should react the air defenses against a wrong reply … which other ID criteria have to be taken in account etc …
Are red fighters equipped with interrogator …
What is the priority level … do we have a coder able (want) to develop an IFF code …
Etc…
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About IFF … Just one thing that many ppl are missing: IFF (every mode from M1 to M4) is only made to provide a positive ID solution over friendly area.
By the time you are crossing the FLOT (more precisely the “Switch OFF” line located several Nm before the FLOT), all the IFF modes are supposed to be strangled.
So, in a scenario like in our favorite simulation, IFF is pointless as soon as you are leaving the friendly airspace and the only ways to make a positive ID are: Communications, AWACS, sensors (RWR, NCTR, TGP and direct visual ID) timings, trajectory and altitude.
IFF will be usable again over hostile airspace ONLY when air supremacy is gained and when the enemy air threat is reduced close to zero.So, while IFF could be a nice addition in the sim, it is far from providing an ultimate ID solution if simmers are considering RL constrains.
Just to say … since the Korea war, the most of the friendly losses were due to friendly fire and air collision. This is why the most important are the respect of assigner corridors, altitude and timings.
During major exercises like Red Flag, Maple Flag etc … most of the time, late comers (a/c not “as fraged” and unable to push on time) are simply kicked out and are not authorized to push.To sum-up … IFF in only one more device/procedure to prevent frat kills on friendly side. And remember the most important: Positive IFF ID can only ID a friendly, not a foe. If you have no IFF reply, you can’t assume safely that it is an enemy in 100% of the cases.
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Yes, IFF can give Positive Friendly Identification or Lack of Friendly Identification - no Positive Enemy Identification.
Im curious DeeJay, when might RWR cues form part of the ID matrix? Im amusing myself presently by trying to write an example one, and I cant see RWR working correctly as PEI without correlating the RWR cue to the specific radar track… and as the RWR cue has no elevation information, you cannot correlate a specific track to a specific cue (although it might be useful information telling you that there is a MiG-29 down range, it doesnt help you tell which group on the scope is the MiG-29).
Cheers
EDIT: Also, whats up with the necro? Bit of an old thread to resurrect?
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Im curious DeeJay, when might RWR cues form part of the ID matrix?
I do not really know. But it can help to have a good idea IF no ambiguities are assumed. In any cases … to be considered with cautious. In a rule of thumb, a simple RWR cues can’t be considered as a positive enemy ID whatever it is.
RWR cue is just on more entry in the matrix.
(although it might be useful information telling you that there is a MiG-29 down range, it doesnt help you tell which group on the scope is the MiG-29).
Exactly.
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I am sure Win10 WILL have IFF.
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I do not really know. But it can help to have a good idea IF no ambiguities are assumed. In any cases … to be considered with cautious. In a rule of thumb, a simple RWR cues can’t be considered as a positive enemy ID whatever it is.
RWR cue is just on more entry in the matrix.
I found the following describing the ID matrix online:
An “IF/THEN” decision tree used to determine the ID of all tracks or targets inside an AOR.
To the guys (and gals) who are familiar with such things, does that description fit well?
If you have two groups close together, and ^16s and ^29s on the RWR roughly on that azimuth… seems like that would cause problems to a well defined decision making tree.
Hell, what if you were getting RWR data from a Su-27 at 10 thousand bearing 030, and you find a contact on your scope on the same azimuth, at 30 thousand… you probably wouldnt even see the contact at 10 thousand unless you were far away enough.
You would just get a nice single contact on the scope that appears to correlate with the RWR paints.
Im not trying to say RWR isnt used in ID, at all - but I am trying to work out when it might be used, and what kind of caveats might get used. It seems to me like if you can correlate a hostile radar to an FCR track, then that would be PEI right there. Its just the getting the correlation that I am stuck on.
I am sure Win10 WILL have IFF.
So, is there another acronym which is ALSO IFF…?
Internal Feature Fixing or something that M$ might use?
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For me, IFF would be nothing else as an AWACS that declares everything as a bogey… if it says friendly, you can not be 100% sure, if it says nothing, you also dont know. So, 1 buttopn pushing and firering is not the big deal. You have always to check the answers if they can be true or not and so on… so, IFF it not the master part I would Need, there are hundets of things that are more important…
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IFF I would have had IFF in the past, I wouldn’t be married in the first place
Joking aside: the cheat with a wingie attacking your target also goes the other way around: AI enemies have perfect knowledge of the friend/foe status of any aircraft ingame. You might be doubtfull about that radar spike at 30 miles, your AI enemy isn’t.
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IFF I would have had IFF in the past, I wouldn’t be married in the first place
Joking aside: the cheat with a wingie attacking your target also goes the other way around: AI enemies have perfect knowledge of the friend/foe status of any aircraft ingame. You might be doubtfull about that radar spike at 30 miles, your AI enemy isn’t.
Yep … but the question is not to find a workaround which could be a sort of passive cheat … so … it makes me thinking that, the “Unable” when asking a wingy to attack a friendly should be replaced by a “Copy” … that is all. The IA will just not shoot in case of friendly target.
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Any thoughts on ways which a fog of war could be implemented and still give the player a working 2D map they could use as AWACS?
Esp. thoughts on ways that such a fog of war could be implemented for AI as well…?
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There already is IFF in BMS…you radar lock the bogey, and if they say “buddy spike” they’re friendly. It probably matches closely the actual failure rate of IFF. Assuming there are no humans.
Anything high when I’m in friendly territory I assume that AWACS knows about it and would be warning me about it if it was the enemy. If it’s under 5000 feet I’ll declare it.
I really don’t know what to do if I can’t get info from an AWACS or it’s a dogfight situation other than radar lock and either return fire if they fire at me or fire once I see enemy markings.
I’d like to see a flowchart of all the things you can do to identify friend or foe.
In the meantime if there’s no AWACS: -
There already is IFF in BMS…you radar lock the bogey, and if they say “buddy spike” they’re friendly. It probably matches closely the actual failure rate of IFF. Assuming there are no humans.
Anything high when I’m in friendly territory I assume that AWACS knows about it and would be warning me about it if it was the enemy. If it’s under 5000 feet I’ll declare it.
I really don’t know what to do if I can’t get info from an AWACS or it’s a dogfight situation other than radar lock and either return fire if they fire at me or fire once I see enemy markings.
I’d like to see a flowchart of all the things you can do to identify friend or foe.
In the meantime if there’s no AWACS:Use NCTR
or
TGP
or
Mark one eye ball
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…the whole point of using IFF is to keep your radar from shining on the bogey…so he doesn’t reverse-ID/locate you and make a new decision.
IFF for BMS could be done, IMO…with some caveats and based on civilian operation. But that would be “good enough”, and better than nothing.
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I really don’t know what to do if I can’t get info from an AWACS or it’s a dogfight situation other than radar lock and either return fire if they fire at me or fire once I see enemy markings.
I’d like to see a flowchart of all the things you can do to identify friend or foe.Such a flowchart is called an ID matrix. It usually includes some or all of the following; Visual ID, Identification Friend or Foe, Non Cooperative Target Recognition, Minimum Risk Routing, Point Of Origin, Declaration, Raygun/Buddyspike… I had a good example one somewhere but I cant find it at the moment. A lot of stuff is based on aircraft behavior - Minimum Risk Routing, High Fast Flyer, Point Of Origin - rather than technology based interrogations like IFF or NCTR. Radar can interrogate one group at a time, but it can display the behavior of lots of groups simultaneously.
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Im curious DeeJay, when might RWR cues form part of the ID matrix? Im amusing myself presently by trying to write an example one, and I cant see RWR working correctly as PEI without correlating the RWR cue to the specific radar track… and as the RWR cue has no elevation information, you cannot correlate a specific track to a specific cue (although it might be useful information telling you that there is a MiG-29 down range, it doesnt help you tell which group on the scope is the MiG-29).
So apparently some F-16s can display the diamond RWR contact along the bottom of the FCR to help correlate RWR contacts in azimuth with FCR contacts. Seeing as the FCR is a B-scope that would make it very easy to correlate groups with NAILS/SPIKES. I guess you still have to have other items on your list though, because unless the picture is single group, you might have two groups on the same azimuth in which case, you would know that there is someone hostile downrange but not necessarily who it is.
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There are so many ways to ID the target. IFF would be nice to have but not live threatening important. Just to share some of my tricks:
1. Always bring along a TGP. TGP in TV mode is amazingly useful to visually ID a target. You could ascertain the target type way before it enters NEZ.
2. Single Target track mode. 2xTMS up will yield either a “budy spike” or silence. If silence, fox 3 away.
3. Single track could sometimes yields NCTR for you if range and aspect are right.
4. I always have RWR search mode on. I know many S’s will make the scope busy, but sometimes an early investigation of an S hat over the horizon will tell a friend or foe long before you see 29 on your RWR. -
This is a sample ID matrix for an IADS. Fighter matrices would be similar although with different elements included as well - systems not present on ground based installations such as NCTR.
JP3-01 has some good discussion of the basics of the interplay of ROE and CID. Worth a read.