Refueling tips anyone?
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I’ve uploaded a combo TE including three different tanker types here:
Also I find it easier to get to the contact position with headtracking disabled and HUD only view active… less wobbling introduced by my wobbly head to an already very wobbly stick / aircraft combo
HTH
Uwe
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Speaking of wobbly… if it is at all possible for your joystick base or whatever it is resting on to move in any way, it introduces an extra wobble factor. That sucker needs to be rock solid relative to your body position. It makes a difference.
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Speaking of wobbly… if it is at all possible for your joystick base or whatever it is resting on to move in any way, it introduces an extra wobble factor. That sucker needs to be rock solid relative to your body position. It makes a difference.
Yep: my x65 is screwed into my desk.
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A bit late to this thread, but I thought I’d add an engineer’s perspective. Note that I am a bit of a rookie when it comes to performing AAR in practice, so not claiming any kind of expertise here - but I am mostly able to hook up unless in turns (when the springs of the joystick are fighting me).
As a physics problem AAR is fairly complicated. For one, you have a delay between control inputs and aircraft response. You move the throttle, it takes some time for thrust to build, and then for that thrust to translate into speed. Thus it is easy to over-control on the throttle, because you sense the aircraft “not responding” (which means it just has not responded yet), thus you add extra control input, which leads to more (or less) thrust than planned.
If one is in stable flight and you need to make a relative speed change based on visual observation, then that will correspond to a certain thrust, so in order to solve the velocity problem, one “just” has to set the right thrust (“just” because this is hard until one gets a good gut feel for it). However, doing only this will normally not also get you in the right position in the z-axis, so the solution would essentially be to initially set a different thrust which will result in a period of either too high or too low speed, which will enable ending up in the right position if at the right time adjusting thrust to the correct level. While also correcting thrust for any velocity changes due to any type of maneuvering.
So what does this all mean? For me what I have applied to my AAR is (a) to anticipate the lag between control inputs and translation into a certain flight regime, and also managing that by approaching in a way which requires small corrections (thus reducing the effects of lag), (b) frequently briefly over-controlling the throttle in order to anticipate the need for extra correction, e.g. if I start to lag and need to add some extra thrust, then briefly overthrust (a little) in order to accelerate better and recover some lost distance, while quickly bringing back the throttle to required position for the target velocity, plus constantly making small corrections.
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I just did a training run in my Aegean AAR TE, flying out from Karpathos to the Asimi training range and topping off on our way back on a KC-10 running a 100m E/W track along the north coast of Crete. Having only started to seriously practise AAR this week or so, I was able to hook up to the boom at the first attempt and sucking 5,000 lbs of juice in one go without a disconnect. Well, how did I manage? Only a week ago I was pondering throwing out my trusty Cougar for a new warthog because I thought the controls were to blame, and in a way they were, but now I approach AAR differently after a discovery I made last week.
During yet another hours-long praccy run with nothing but frustration, wobbling around the tanker like a ping-pong ball bouncing on the surf I started yanking the throttle quite a bit in a rythmic fashion; more out of frustration than anything else, but all of a sudden I was able to control my airspeed! With better KIA control came smaller necessary control inputs from the stick, and guess what, I was cleared to contact within a minute and for the first time ever managed to stay connected longer than five seconds.
So right now, my method is like this:
- work through the AAR SOP (radar on standby, fuel door open, master arm safe, Chaff / flare safe)
- get low behind the tanker, say within .1 mile or so (AA TACAN)
- disable TrackIR / FaceTrackNoIR in my case (Alt-F8 here)
- switch to HUD-only view (pinky - DMS left on my setup)
- work the throttle rythmically from full military power to half way back and forward again, it really is a see-saw motion over half the cougar’s range
- keep working the throttle like this even if you think it’s not necessary, making minor corrections on the stick
- once I’m cleared to contact, move in under the tanker (still working the throttle like you’re at the gym)
- My aim is to keep the indicator lights (their forward end) on the very top of the screen, and keep them there (working the throttle as described)
- once I get the “contact” message (oh joy! ;)), I keep working the throttle rythmically (from full mil power to halfway back or so), adapting the rythm to stay in the green / yellow area of the F/A lights
I guess it’s easier to control speed this way as the engine responds better at higher rpms, and working the throttle like described above keeps it in that “sweet” range where you don’t go from 310 KIA to 298 within seconds, only to see the tanker from pulling away over you. The “only small correction” stuff w/r to the throttle may be okay for warthog and / or modded cougar owners, but it’s never worked for me on my stock cougar. The correct rythm for me is like “one mississipi / two mississipi” and then back to half power again for a couple of seconds, then full mil once more. Rinse and repeat.
As I’ve said I’ve gone from “ping pong in the wash” to being able to hook up most every time and stay connected within a week and maybe with a total of 10 hours practise. I hope this approach works for you too, let me know what you think!
All the best, Uwe
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I guess it’s easier to control speed this way as the engine responds better at higher rpms, and working the throttle like described above keeps it in that “sweet” range where you don’t go from 310 KIA to 298 within seconds, only to see the tanker from pulling away over you. The “only small correction” stuff w/r to the throttle may be okay for warthog and / or modded cougar owners, but it’s never worked for me on my stock cougar. The correct rythm for me is like “one mississipi / two mississipi” and then back to half power again for a couple of seconds, then full mil once more. Rinse and repeat.
Well, I have a stock cougar throttle, and the only time I need to bang the throttle grip off both stops during refueling is if I have stuffed my power management thoroughly.
You know that there is a sweet range in between those two extremes at which the jet just sits there doing the same speed as the tanker? Just gotta have drag equal to thrust…
Not in the right spot? Then you have to adjust the power with a throttle transient, let the jet get to where it needs to be… then make the same correction in reverse.
Banging the throttle off both stops does mean you get high accel and decel, sure - but the engine actually takes LONGER to respond, than if you are making the appropriate level of input correction.
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I’m not exactly “banging” the throttle, but I’m moving it in a certain rythm between “mil power” (before the first AB detent) and somewhere along halfway back before idle.
As I’ve said I’ve never managed to find that “sweet spot”, but using my method I’ve staid on the boom every time I’ve refuelled so far (approaching ten successful top-ups, yay ;)). Maybe my description sounds more “violent” than it really is.
Uwe
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How does that work when the jet is heavy instead of light?
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He is on the right track IMO, to maintain the position you have to work the throttle a bit, i do that when i refuel and when i fly formation too. I dont do large movements though, just pushing forward a small bit for a second and then back to where i was, the effect of the throttle movement has a small delay so you need to go back Before you actually see the forward gain. If you push forward and wait too long you will accelerate too much and the reflex is to pull back very much and then you lose too much speed and the carusell is active.
So, a small push for a second and then back again over and over and over, and if you want to go forward you just hold the push for a Little longer, and then back again. Same way if you need to go back, pull back a small bit for a second and then push forward to the position you were. Just dont wait with the throttle movement until you see the effect, as i said, there is a delay.Regards
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Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but what helped me improve was starting out with the refueling realism setting on the easy level and then progressed into the realistic setting. The medium setting (I believe it’s called “simplified”?) helped me a lot as I developed better anticipation of what happens during an A-A refueling procedure. Granted, taking off the training wheels and moving into the full realistic setting is still a big change, but I believe it helped me to finally master it in the end. It definitely didn’t hurt building my confidence on the medium setting either.
Also, as others have suggested, try turning off the HUD. Personally, I prefer to just learn to ignore the HUD and focus on the blank spaces instead of turning it off.
Good luck!
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starting out with the refueling realism setting on the easy level
Yes, this has been mentioned in countless threads, as something you should not do! At least this particular setting is not a broken one…
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I have seen other people having the same problem.
Basically, what they do is pulling up until they see the jet matching the vertical speed of the tanker. Now, what the FLCS will do is keeping the pitch straight, “pulling” the FPM a little. So, the vertical speed will be a little more than initially demanded. So, they correct in the other direction, playing the same game again which will lead to some kind of pilot induced oscillation in the vertical.It’s all about practice. If you have the chance to fly online, practice formation flying a lot. Practice fast rejoins, practice formation turns. It’s all about having the “feel” of the aircraft which is developed best by just flying formations. If you have some guy willing to give you some practice, practice formation flights with “jumps” in altitude. Fly at angels 20, initiate a 10° climb to angels 24 followed by a 5° descent back to angels 22 and try to hold formation.
Learn to give small inputs. Try to put the FPM exactly on the horizon line, or exactly at 5° pitch, or exactly about 2mm above the horizon line. Then establish a formation with someone, put him on your 2 o’clock and try to do the same without looking at the HUD or with the HUD disabled.
Once you’re getting used to keep a formation, it won’t matter if the tanker is in a turn or not. You just fix that point on your canopy and keep it there. It becomes second nature.Remember: “Up” is where you make it to be :nosep:
As for keeping a given airspeed: When you have reached the airspeed you wanted, note the fuel flow you have. Note the power setting. If you need to correct, come back to the power setting you remembered and look at the fuel flow.
Once you practiced that a bit, it gets second nature too. But no, I don’t check fuel flow when hooked up- at least not the one to the engine but into my tanks But for practice purposes, it’s quite handy.
However, if your lead goes full bang-bang-mode, this won’t help. But for keeping a given airspeed, establishing the same fuel flow comes in quite handy.
When flying lead, I usually keep the same airspeed or power setting and avoid sharp corrections to let my mates follow up with ease and without spending too much time for keeping the formation.You need some kind of sense what the jet will do if you do this or that. Once you mastered it, you will have less reaction to where the jet is flying to and more prediction where the jet will go when you pull the stick that much.
For small corrections in speed, I push the throttle about an inch or so, keep it there for about a full second and pull back to the same power setting I had before. You have to put it back a moment before you reach the intended speed because the engine needs time to spool up or down (the higher you are, the more).
Small reductions in airspeed can be made by popping the boards out and retracting it again before they are even fully opened or by pulling the throttle back in the same way- short correction and back to where it has been. The airbrakes shouldn’t be used on the tanker because they will induce a short pitch-up when extending.
The trick is finding the power setting that gives you the speed you want.Take it easy, get some more flight hours and practice formation flying. In the meanwhile, have fun flying that beautiful sim of one of the best fighter airplanes in the world
Take your time. I never move the stick to more than maybe 25% of its range when refueling, most of the time I stay within 10%. The throttle bang-bang usually doesn’t give the best results in higher altitudes, but some people have more success with that than with small inputs.
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The joystick settings has a small amount of deadzone enabled by default. I found setting the deadzone to zero to help as well.
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The joystick settings has a small amount of deadzone enabled by default. I found setting the deadzone to zero to help as well.
+1 if you stick is precise enough. On a Warthog, for ex, this is indeed excellent advice.
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Get a good stick, learn to use it, keep calm, practice, and bingo you’ll get there……I actually think its better to just practice and get there yourself because it will become second nature that way once mastered.
Also you should create a shit load of TE scenarios and master them before starting campaign too, it will reduce your campaign heartbreak…and there great fun.
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I bought me a cougar for 80€, and did my first refuel for over a year, being used to the force sensing x65, it was not an easy task, the tanker started to turn before I connected and I started to go jojo, I pushed my trim forward so I had to have a small pull on my stick to go level, I thought that was better and I had better feel in pitch.
But I will definitely get a force sensing mod for the cougar, it’s night and day in difference when it comes to smaller inputs. -
I bought me a cougar for 80€, and did my first refuel for over a year, being used to the force sensing x65, it was not an easy task, the tanker started to turn before I connected and I started to go jojo, I pushed my trim forward so I had to have a small pull on my stick to go level, I thought that was better and I had better feel in pitch.
But I will definitely get a force sensing mod for the cougar, it’s night and day in difference when it comes to smaller inputs.Don’t forget to kill the HUD too, as suggested earlier. FSSB in the Cougar and no HUD makes refueling as routine as filling the car now!
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I must admit that I NEVER look at the HUD during refueling. I am padlocked to the tanker…
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<slightly offtopic=“”>has any keyboard user managed to do a proper refueling?</slightly>
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How does that work when the jet is heavy instead of light?
i’ve both managed to refuel successfully in a fully loaded jet and one that is basically naked, doesn’t make much of a difference really (at least nothing that I noted being due to the different loadouts).
Cheers, Uwe