Israel 1980s - UOAF edition
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In the 1988 campaign, there is no squadron patch for 140 Squadron?
According to F-16.net, 140 Squadron was located at Ramon and didn’t move to Nevatim until 2000.
They moved to Ramon from Tel Nof when receiving their F-16s in 1987, so it appears they were at Ramon during 1988 and not Nevatim.F-16 unit ORBAT: http://www.f-16.net/units_airforce180.html
Squadron info and patch details: http://www.f-16.net/units_article304.html
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Some more missing patches for the 1988 campaign. I’ll have a look at the 1982 campaign next:
Missing:
122 squadron E-2C
This should be 192 Squadron instead of 122: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/192_Squadron_(Israel)
122 Squadron operated Dakota’s during the 1980s I believe.patch: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/152393318954-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
120 Squadron KC-707
patch: http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-122.jpgAlternate patch: https://i.ebayimg.com/11/!BOCFj6!BGk~$(KGrHgoOKi0EjlLmUvDqBJst)4qIV!~~_12.JPG?set_id=800005007
(I don’t know if this is official or just an unofficial patch)
Similar patch in Hebrew for 8000 Hours: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ISRAEL-IDF-A-F-INT-GIANT-DESERT-SQ-BOEING-707-8000-HR-PATCH-NO-RESERVE-/29227416221569 Squadron F-4E
patch: http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-137.jpg102 Squadron A-4M
patch: http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-136.jpg106 Squadron F-15C
patch: http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-128.jpg133 Squadron F-15D
patch: http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/03/01/79/07_full.png133 Squadron operates a mixture of single and two-seat F-15s, not exclusively the F-15D.
Example: http://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p499827014/h3bd15c36#h3bd15c36131 Squadron C-130H
patch: http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-121.jpg134 Squadron RC-707
Not surprisingly, I haven’t found a patch yet. -
1982 Campaign remarks:
140 Squadron now has a patch (but not in 1988 campaign).
192 Squadron (E-2C) is correct (but not in 1988 campaign).
133 Squadron is listed twice, once with F-15D and once with F-15A.Note that this web site states that the forming of 133 Squadron (The Second Eagle Squadron), actually did not occur before the start of the 1982 campaign because of the invasion of Lebanon and all F-15s were flown by a single, large squadron instead:
Although the F-15C/Ds were scheduled to split off from 133 squadron on 6 June 1982, this didn’t actually occur, because the invasion of Lebanon, (Operation Peace For Galilee), was suddenly launched that same day. Throughout the invasion period 6-11 June, the Eagles operated as a single unit flying escort missions for numerous Israeli air strikes, and engaging in intensive dogfights with Syrian AF fighters. In seven days of fighting the IDF/AF claimed to have destroyed no fewer than 80 aircraft and five helicopters. Of these totals the Eagle squadron accounted for 36.5 victories for no loss - most of the remainder falling to F-16 units.
link: http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_iaf_133.php
Missing patches:
113 Squadron http://www.thebattlezone.com/internat/iafpatchpix/pa-in-iaf-132.jpgThe 1982 campaign also includes a 177 Squadron (F-16A) at Nevatim but no such squadron exists within the IDF.
You already have 117 Squadron included at Ramat David so either this squadron was duplicated by mistake or a typo happened for another squadron.However, the only other F-16 squadron to have existed at Nevatim was 144 Squadron which was a Kfir squadron until 1994 before moving to Hatzor and being disbanded in 2005.
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Excellent work Tazz!
The squadron patches and 80’s tail art are already planned to be implemented. I wanted to wait and be sure we’ve got all the squadrons finalized before nhawk and I invest time photoshopping/installing the patches.
I’ve created a squadron spreadsheet which I will update with new information and changes (go to the squadrons tab at the bottom)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hq3W7fdU8qElw4jruC4ZNZNM8G2lJ47E2DcmnsR0zWE/edit#gid=8574381I’ll quickly address the 117th “duplicate.” Nhawk did this purposely, some squadrons are mixed and operate 2 types of aircraft. He can weigh in on this with his sources. However they are at different bases which I assume is wrong (probably was inadvertently moved for gameplay purposes) I want to go full realism but at some point we will have to deviate from reality for gameplay, you simply can’t have 7-8 squadrons at Ramon. You’ll notice no other theater does something like that, it will be a massive traffic jam. We should at least keep the same numbered squadrons at the same airbases…… will have nhawk fix it.
This new spreadsheet will help us better organize and keep track of our changes.
Nhawk makes the campaigns and I try to help and “audit” them, like what you’re doing. Big help!
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We also need to add Kfir and a squadron of F-15A to the '88 camp
Some info Uri gave me on squadrons:
As for IAF squadrons… it’s a mess in the 80s be careful
for example in 1980 the 110th and the 117th had been the first two F-16A squadrons in the IAF.
in 1986 when the first block 30s had entered service, 110 & 117 had transferred all their aircraft to 140th and 253rd squarons (which were A-4 and Kfir squadrons).
then the first three squadrons getting the block 30 were the 110, 117 and 109 (which was also a A-4 squadron at the time).109 and 140 moved their aircrafts to the 115th and 116th squadrons.
however, all three squadrons had operated both the C and D variants.
in 1991 the first block 40s were recived. going to the 101 and 105 (also mixed squadrons).
101 was operating kfir and the 105 was F-4 squadron till 1987.only in the 2000s the seperation of C and D to different squadrons has started in the IAF.
yeah, 80s was a mess
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Note that this web site states that the forming of 133 Squadron (The Second Eagle Squadron), actually did not occur before the start of the 1982 campaign because of the invasion of Lebanon and all F-15s were flown by a single, large squadron instead:
I think you’ve misinterpreted the F-15 Link. (or typo)
All the F-15’s operated under the 133rd Double Tail squadron in 1982
After the war, the C’s and D’s separated into the 106th Spearhead squadron. Both 133rd and 106th based at Tel Nof
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxVB1kwqSn3BMnhRcFVrdC04WDgAlso i’m noticing some of the patches you’ve posted were for squadrons that we have wrong, like the 113th. (they are cobras, and should be the 160th or 161st, haven’t set correctly yet) So again, need to get the squadrons fixed 1st, patches come second.
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IAF was using the Flying Tigers Patch on the A-4M? Interesting
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I think you’ve misinterpreted the F-15 Link. (or typo)
All the F-15’s operated under the 133rd Double Tail squadron in 1982
After the war, the C’s and D’s separated into the 106th Spearhead squadron. Both 133rd and 106th based at Tel Nof
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxVB1kwqSn3BMnhRcFVrdC04WDgSorry I meant the other wary around. The Double Tail (133) squadron was the only Baz squadron to see action during the Lebanon war, which lasted from 04 June 1982 until the cease fire on 11 June 1982.
The Spearhead squadron (106) was established on 16 June 1982 (page 61. “Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat”, Combat Aircraft 067, Osprey), … “some ten days later than was originally planned.” )
On page 62 it continues to detail that 106 Squadron achieved IOC immediately because all its personnel had, in fact, been conducting combat operations as part of the 133 Squadron.Is it possible to double the inventory of a single squadron in BMS so that it can generate the same amount of missions as two squadrons while only representing a single squadron?
If not, then giving one squadron F-15Cs and the other F-15As would probably be the most accurate solution. As it doesn’t seem to be possible to have squadrons operate mixtures of F-15C/Ds or F-15A/Bs, it would make sense to pick the most numerous version. Under Peace Fox III, the IDF received 18 F-15Cs and 8 F-15Ds, so going with the F-15C seems to make the most sense?
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IAF was using the Flying Tigers Patch on the A-4M? Interesting
lol is one of his patches wrong?
Is it possible to double the inventory of a single squadron in BMS so that it can generate the same amount of missions as two squadrons while only representing a single squadron?
doubtful
If not, then giving one squadron F-15Cs and the other F-15As would probably be the most accurate solution. As it doesn’t seem to be possible to have squadrons operate mixtures of F-15C/Ds or F-15A/Bs, it would make sense to pick the most numerous version. Under Peace Fox III, the IDF received 18 F-15Cs and 8 F-15Ds, so going with the F-15C seems to make the most sense?
The way we’re doing it in the 82 camp for example, (if you check out the squadron spreadsheet I’ve linked), is to make three 133rd squadrons, all based at Tel Nof. One for A, one for C, one for D. In Mission commander we can tailor each squadron to have the correct amount of aircraft.
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lol is one of his patches wrong?
doubtful
This page also lists the Flying Tigers patch: http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_iaf_102.php
So this the A-4 Skyhawk Association: http://a4skyhawk.info/article-unit/iaf-flying-tiger-squadronThe same patch is also found on page 71 of “Israeli A-4 Skyhawk Units in Combat” so that pretty much confirms it if you ask me.
The way we’re doing it in the 82 camp for example, (if you check out the squadron spreadsheet I’ve linked), is to make three 133rd squadrons, all based at Tel Nof. One for A, one for C, one for D. In Mission commander we can tailor each squadron to have the correct amount of aircraft.
Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron. -
This page also lists the Flying Tigers patch: http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_iaf_102.php
So this the A-4 Skyhawk Association: http://a4skyhawk.info/article-unit/iaf-flying-tiger-squadronThe same patch is also found on page 71 of “Israeli A-4 Skyhawk Units in Combat” so that pretty much confirms it if you ask me.
Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron.As of now the number we have (and in your source as well) shows only 2 F-15B models…. so that is a bit small for its own squadron so we added that number to the F-15D squadron.
Now patches anyone?
- 69 - 102, - 103, - 106, - 113, - 114, - 116, - 118, - 120, - 123 , - 124, - 131, - 133, - 143, - 144, - 147, - 160, - 161, & - 190, - 192 - 254,
For patches well we pretty much had all of them already:
(note the 114th,116th,160th,161st, and the 192nd patches are flipped)
- 69 - 102, - 103, - 106, - 113, - 114, - 116, - 118, - 120, - 123 , - 124, - 131, - 133, - 143, - 144, - 147, - 160, - 161, & - 190, - 192 - 254,
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Does 134 Squadron even HAS a patch?
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Do you also want to add a F-15B squadron? I know it gets messy but F-15Bs scored kills on 10 June and 11 June 1982 (2x MiG-25).
In fact all four F-15 A, B, C and D models scored kills against Syrian Air Force aircraft during combat over Lebanon. Note that all aircraft are listed as 133 Squadron.a squadron of just 2 won’t even work I imagine, as 2 are automatically kept in reserve for scrambling
Also my F-15 book shows Simon and Hodorov in Baz 704 killing 1xmig-21 that day. No MiG-25’s. You never know which source to believe sometimes! haha -
I think the MiG-25P kills were in 1981, not 1982. So that one website got the kills right, the aircraft type right but not the dates.
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Ah, I see. The book goes into some good detail (page 32 and 37) about the two Foxbat-E kills in '81 too. One was accomplished by the same pilot Shaul Simon, and both in single seaters. Think the guy who made that website got a bit confused haha.
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Our in-game OOB now matches very closely to the real thing.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-mideast/israel/af/orbat4-10.htm
Squadrons, numbers of aircraft, and the correct bases. Pretty cool.
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Aeroflight is often a bit out of date, which isn’t too bad for this theater but my main go-to source for current ORBAT info is Scramble’s Orbat section:
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Nice. Thing is we found the Aeroflight page after everything was complete, all gathered from other sources, and what we had lined right up with their ORBAT.
Now if we could just get the AI to play out the war realistically…
For instance, in reality Israel never flew into Syrian airspace, or attacked airbases/military installations in Syria. But in BMS it’s a free-for all. I guess the player can set the PAKs and conduct the war how he chooses.
We’ll at least get the ground forces pushing toward Beirut. -
Well that’s the drawback of a dynamic campaign engine. You can put all the chess pieces in the right spots but you don’t really know or control how the game will unfold.
In order to fully re-enact the 1982 conflict, a scripted approach (e.g. DCS) would work better or otherwise set-piece TEs. But as a campaign, you’ll come to a point where you can put all the pieces in the right place and then let go and see what happens.
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Regarding fictional campaigns, have you considered a scenario that would see Iran join into the campaign against Israel, deploying their assets into Lebanon and Syria?
That would bring a lot of other interesting things into play … Not least of them Tomcats, F-5s, F-4s, Mirage F1s, etc.