Training Mission 8 Fail - TFR
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Hello,
I just crashed, Training Mission 8 (with the FLIR and the TFR), because my falcon was stuck in “Pull Up! Pull Up!” and I couldn’t push the stick forward to stop the climb (which inevitably ended up in a stall then crash).
Specifically, I crashed right at the beginning of implementing Step 8.1, “MAN TF check”, page 73. This would have put me somewhere between SPs 2 and 3, at about 1000’ and 350 kts.
I had just completed the FLIR-Boresight-with-the-HUD step, and placed FLIR back into STBY. TFR was in STBY, and the 8.1 MAN TF check step begins by accelerating to 350kts @1000’ (that part went okay).The very next step requires me place the TFR into NORM. I did suchly.
The training documentation tells us to expect several warnings. I got all those and more. (Well, actually I never did see the “MAN TF box” (that the docs tell me might be in the HUD(?)) but maybe I was a little bit distracted on that bucking bronco.)
Immediately Bitchin Betty started up and the nose came up. Hard. High. Wouldn’t respond to me pushing forward stick. I immediately put on AB to buy some seconds with flyable airspeed –- I’m digressing, ignore for the moment the airmanship part of flying an emergency, let’s get back on-topic about the overall failure.
So at the next step of the training manual it says to accelerate beyond 400 kts and note that the LIMITS disappear above 360 kts. That never happened. Even though during my excursions between the trees and FL200 and with AB I did at points exceed 400 kts, i NEVER saw the LIMITS go away. But I think the LIMITS not going away had more to do with my specific malfunction and not that the training missions/scripts are bad per se.
Ignoring the training docs at that point, trying to save the plane, I immediately put the TFR back into STBY. That helped a little bit, but I was so flustered that I cannot now clearly recall what exactly got better and what didn’t. SOME things got better but not everything. BB was still mouthin off at me, and the craft was unresponsive (I’m not sure if the unresponsiveness had to do with the impending/actual stall or if the flight computer was still fighting me at the stick).
It is at this point that I noticed I took off with the Rdr Alt still in STBY mode. Thinking that the TFR logic was wigging out because it wasn’t getting any sensor input, I flicked the Rdr Alt to ‘on’ and put the TFR back into NORM. I was hoping providing the TFR logic with some sensor input would calm it down. No such luck.
You get the picture, I don’t think we need more narrative at this point.
Questions:
Did having the Rdr Alt in STBY when I engaged the TFR from STBY to NORM have anything to do with my failure? If yes, then why didn’t placing the Rdr Alt into on and cycling the TFR not fix it?
Or was something else the cause?
Once the plane insisted on climbing - even to the point of killing itself in an unsustainable climb/losing airspeed situation - how come I couldn’t regain control / how do I disengage all that and regain control?
Is Training Mission 8 flawed/bug that I didn’t know about?
What other parameters do you need to hear to provide me a better answer?
A couple more relevant points:
I picked the Mission 8 from the menu but I actually ran-through the documentation step-by-step for Mission 1 (Ramp Start), flipping back to mission 8 instructions after the MFDs came online during the ramp start procedures, then flipped back to mission 2 pages to do the taxi, EOR checks; then finally flipped back to mission 8 instructions to finish the pre-flight of the FLIR at EOR before taking off.
Should I have chosen to start mission 8 in-flight? Would the pods be cooled down at that point?Thanks in advance to all.
signed,
rookie on my eighth flight. -
I love these narratives
Did having the Rdr Alt in STBY when I engaged the TFR from STBY to NORM have anything to do with my failure? If yes, then why didn’t placing the Rdr Alt into on and cycling the TFR not fix it?
Yes. The TFR gets it’s altitude from … the radar alt.
If it’s in stby, bit or inop the TFR will fail
When the TFR fails, it does a fly-up. Which is what happened to youTo cancel a fly up, you need to depress the paddle and keep it down (long rectangular button you usually hit with your right little finger.)
With the paddle depressed you then have stick authority and you must fix the TFR fail.
Once it’s fixed, you can release the paddle and then reset the TFR.If you release the paddle while the TFR is still failing, it will continue it’s fly-up
The use of the paddle switch during a TFR SWIM failure is dual:
It inhibits the flyup and upon release resets the FLCS. That is the reason why if you put the ralt switch on after the flyup and get altitude readings, the flyup will continue.
Press/ release of the paddle or doing a FLCS reset will clear the SWIM fault if it does not still exist.What happened to you can be understood better I think in the TFR swim check of the training manual.
It’s the part of the TFR checks where you check the operation of the RALT - by placing it in bit while in MAN TFA second possibility is that you either drifted of course or took longer to make the checks than the leg between stpt 2 and 3
and you drifted into inclement weather
Rain disrupts TFR operation unless the pilot puts the TFR into WX mode
(explained later in the training docs)
If that’s the case, you will constantly fight the TFR which will constantly do fly-ups until you actually hit the WX modeYou see the TFR goig banana because of rain on it’s display becoming erratic with lines all over the place (see picture pg76)
Or was something else the cause?
as said above, probably a combination of multiple factors causing the crash, as often in aviation
Your first mistake was the RALT switch
then probably forgotting to use the paddle while fixing the TFR fail issue
then the WX mode might have been the issueWith your RALT issue, you placed the TFR into stby which was the right thing to do.
But you realised your first mistake and put Ralt on and reused the TFR
By then, my bet is that you were in the weather and you suffered from the inability for the TFR to see through rain and didn’t use the WX buttonBut you did great
that’s how you learn: Failing, analysing and in the end learning….Hope that helps
Oh, and by the way, we should change your callsign to Bronco or bucking bronco
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Thanks, Red Dog! That was extremely helpful!
@Red:
I love these narratives
Yes. The TFR gets it’s altitude from … the radar alt.
If it’s in stby, bit or inop the TFR will fail
When the TFR fails, it does a fly-up. Which is what happened to youYup, did it again and this time put the Rdr Alt ‘on’ before engaging the TFR and all was well. (Well, I didn’t finish for time reasons (wife) but I got through the TFR portion of the mission fine.)
@Red:
To cancel a fly up, you need to depress the paddle and keep it down (long rectangular button you usually hit with your right little finger.)
Yeah, but I have a generic joystick not a sexy flight stick. What the heck is the hotkey for the paddle? (answer for future readers: it is Alt-A on my keyboard map but some on the internet claim it is Cntrl-A)
@Red:
A second possibility is that you either drifted of course or took longer to make the checks than the leg between stpt 2 and 3
and you drifted into inclement weather
Rain disrupts TFR operation unless the pilot puts the TFR into WX mode
(explained later in the training docs)
If that’s the case, you will constantly fight the TFR which will constantly do fly-ups until you actually hit the WX modeYou see the TFR goig banana because of rain on it’s display becoming erratic with lines all over the place (see picture pg76)
Yes! That too. I think the mission is poorly structured then. Because I make sure I hit Pause while I’m reading so that I don’t waste time/distance, and STILL I flew into rain way before I could complete all (the TFR) steps of that mission.
My technique: I now fly that mission between SPs 2-3-4 and back 4-3-2, back and forth, just to make sure I can fully do each TFR part of the lesson without the rain jacking me up.
Also, if I had read a page or two ahead of the steps that I crashed, I would have seen about the rain. Duh. Perhaps one should read through the lesson in its entirety before launching it.@Red:
Your first mistake was the RALT switch
then probably forgotting to use the paddle while fixing the TFR fail issue
then the WX mode might have been the issueWith your RALT issue, you placed the TFR into stby which was the right thing to do.
But you realised your first mistake and put Ralt on and reused the TFR
By then, my bet is that you were in the weather and you suffered from the inability for the TFR to see through rain and didn’t use the WX buttonYes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And yes.
I re-flew that mission clean and looking back at my disaster each of your points are correct.@Red:
Oh, and by the way, we should change your callsign to Bronco or bucking bronco
I thought about that… And in the interest of authenticity, keeping it real as BMS is such an immersive sim, I agree. Because in real life those fighter jocks usually have their name given to them by their community, not self-ascribed, and because it is usually is based upon some “incident” that happened to them, often in flight school, then I acquiesce and agree.
Now, if I could figure out how to do that in BMS Forum without actually making a completely new account…Thanks Red Dog!
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Yes! That too. I think the mission is poorly structured then. Because I make sure I hit Pause while I’m reading so that I don’t waste time/distance, and STILL I flew into rain way before I could complete all (the TFR) steps of that mission.
My technique: I now fly that mission between SPs 2-3-4 and back 4-3-2, back and forth, just to make sure I can fully do each TFR part of the lesson without the rain jacking me up.
Also, if I had read a page or two ahead of the steps that I crashed, I would have seen about the rain. Duh. Perhaps one should read through the lesson in its entirety before launching it.Well, there are two ways to pause
freeze or pause
pause is a real pause, everything stops but the user can’t manage avionics
if you use freeze mode, then the time continue to elapse and the weather moves in but you can change avionics toothere’s nothing i can do about that from the TRN perspective; it’s left to user’s discretion to use one or another or a combination of the two according to the mission and the intended purpose
I thought about that… And in the interest of authenticity, keeping it real as BMS is such an immersive sim, I agree. Because in real life those fighter jocks usually have their name given to them by their community, not self-ascribed, and because it is usually is based upon some “incident” that happened to them, often in flight school, then I acquiesce and agree.
Now, if I could figure out how to do that in BMS Forum without actually making a completely new account…I could probably try to arrange that if you wish. just let me know
Thanks Red Dog!
My pleasure
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Hey Red Dog,
I tried to PM you about your suggestion for changing call sign, but your inbox was full.
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“Fail it 'till you nail it”
Best wishes and good luck!
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@Cloud:
Ahhh, memories of my first Girlfriend!!!
C9
“Fail it 'till you nail it”
Best wishes and good luck!
Funny!
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Okay, next chapter:
8.3 “TFR LET DOWN CHECK” (page 75)
The TFR let me down alright! <sarcasm “alright”=“”>Made sure Auto TF (AMS) was off. (verified I saw the MAN TF box in the HUD)
Made sure Rdr Alt was on.Followed instructions to push stick to 500 AGL.
No pull up occurred.
I ended up doing CFIT. Controlled flight into terrain (ground).
Maybe I was too abrupt? Dove too steeply from ~1100? Dove 30 degree down, began maneuver at ~420 kts. Maybe at that speed/angle not enough time for computer to engage the fly-up? Sure wasn’t enough time for me to recover myself once I recognized the fly-up failed. I could only pull nose to just shy of horizon when ran out of room. Kablooey.
As a side question: Besides the training value, do you serious simmers and online players actually do the MAN and AUTO fly-up checks and the TFR Swim checks on EVERY mission? Or do you just check bore sight on the FLIR and engage the TFR and assume it will work for you / once you realize it’s functioning at your mission parameters (CARA, SCP, etc) you simply accept it as good enough? Seems a PITA if every flyer actually did all these checks in-flight enroute…</sarcasm>
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Okay, next chapter:
8.3 “TFR LET DOWN CHECK” (page 75)
The TFR let me down alright! <sarcasm “alright”=“”>Made sure Auto TF (AMS) was off. (verified I saw the MAN TF box in the HUD)
Made sure Rdr Alt was on.Followed instructions to push stick to 500 AGL.
No pull up occurred.
I ended up doing CFIT. Controlled flight into terrain (ground).
Maybe I was too abrupt? Dove too steeply from ~1100? Dove 30 degree down, began maneuver at ~420 kts. Maybe at that speed/angle not enough time for computer to engage the fly-up? Sure wasn’t enough time for me to recover myself once I recognized the fly-up failed. I could only pull nose to just shy of horizon when ran out of room. Kablooey.
As a side question: Besides the training value, do you serious simmers and online players actually do the MAN and AUTO fly-up checks and the TFR Swim checks on EVERY mission? Or do you just check bore sight on the FLIR and engage the TFR and assume it will work for you / once you realize it’s functioning at your mission parameters (CARA, SCP, etc) you simply accept it as good enough? Seems a PITA if every flyer actually did all these checks in-flight enroute…</sarcasm>
Check that the MANAUL TF FLYUP switch is in the ENABLE position. You should have discontinued the MAN TFR check and sort out the problem .I guess that partially answers your question if it’s actually PITA to do the checks on every TFR sortie.
Yes, serious simmers do a LAN check on every TFR sortie after takeoff.
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Well, I didn’t finish for time reasons (wife)
This is one of the most serious bugs currently in BMS, mostly pointing to CFIT - Controlled Flight Into Terrain…