SAM ambush behaviour with ADA skills set to ACE - confirmation?

[ArcherAC3]

Hello.

I have started a campaign in KTO with the enemy ADA skills set to ACE and something unusual - albeit extremely fun - has been going on. Now I’m not sure if this is a bug or really a intended feature, so I’d like to check here if more people that also fly with ADA set to ACE are also experiencing this.

So basically, all the SAM sites (and triple A apparently) are a lot less dumb and showing a somewhat realistic behaviour for me. Instead of the SA-2s having their radar on all the time, allowing me to be aware of them even when I’m miles away from their firing range, they appear silent for the whole time, only showing up on the RWR seconds before they launch a missile (I believe the search radars do turn on though).

As for the last flight I did (the same where I had this issue: https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?34992-Bandits-appearing-out-of-nowhere-ACMI-Falcon-limitation-or-intented) one of the 2 SA-2s never turned on, which allowed them to survive this encounter. The second one only turned on when I was about to fly over it, then my wingman managed to take it down.

The odd thing is that I’ve heard before that Falcon BMS AI was not able to show this type of “ambush” behaviour, as if they were hard-coded to always be turned on and launch at you as soon as you enter it’s firing range - which is very different from what I experienced during every sortie up to day 2 of the campaign so far.
It would therefore be really interesting to have some confirmation about this from you guys.
IIRC falcon 4.0/AF manual mentioned these SAM tactics, although I don’t remember experiencing this back there. Anyway, I really hope this is a feature (which is only activated when ADA is set to ACE) as opposed to a bug or another problem, since it makes the whole experience (and especially SEAD/DEAD sorties) a lot more difficult and fun.

[Dee-Jay]

Hi Archer.

Urban legend.

There has never been an IADS in Falcon 4, not even in Allied Force. All this impression comes from a bug, “nice” bug make SAM erratic and somehow “unpredictable”, but still a bug. And this bug were especially the reason why IADS (a real one) could never work.

[ArcherAC3]

That’s so cheap (and hard to believe is not a thing) xD.

Yet, if this is a bug, it only seems to be triggered when ADA is set to ACE on my end.

[LorikEolmin]

@Dee-Jay:

Hi Archer.

Urban legend.

There has never been an IADS in Falcon 4, not even in Allied Force. All this impression comes from a bug, “nice” bug make SAM erratic and somehow “unpredictable”, but still a bug. And this bug were especially the reason why IADS (a real one) could never work.

The fact Superpak 3 manual contains a IADS chapter probably contributed to this.

[RickyWild]

I started campaign with ADA skills set to roockie and same situation. Was doing SEAD escort for OCA strike. The SA-5s were on all the time, but they are far enough from target, but all SA-2s around th airbase were off.
…Untill I come to lethal zone

[molnibalage]

@RickyWild:

I started campaign with ADA skills set to roockie and same situation. Was doing SEAD escort for OCA strike. The SA-5s were on all the time, but they are far enough from target, but all SA-2s around th airbase were off.
…Untill I come to lethal zone

Because how the “AI” and code works.
Many times is better when players do not know how it works the game.

[Nick Taylor]

If I remember correctly, it was just that. At one point the code checks and set the emitting flag for all entities with detection capibilities. If the search area of a SAM (SA-2 in you example) is already within the range of another AIR DEFENSE radar (SA-5), the search radar has been switched off.

But that does not have anything (or just a little bit) to do with a fully integrated air defense system.

[molnibalage]

@Nick:

If I remember correctly, it was just that. At one point the code checks and set the emitting flag for all entities with detection capibilities. If the search area of a SAM (SA-2 in you example) is already within the range of another AIR DEFENSE radar (SA-5), the search radar has been switched off.

But that does not have anything (or just a little bit) to do with a fully integrated air defense system.

As long as is not lobe modeling in the game with antenna setting modeling and you cannot override the radar slot of the battalion speaking about creating IDAS is sci-fi. Currently a SAM can “detect” in 360 degree targets without having such radar what is capable to do it…

If you do not know what I’m talking is good for you as a player.

[Mav-jp]

@Dee-Jay:

Hi Archer.

Urban legend.

There has never been an IADS in Falcon 4, not even in Allied Force. All this impression comes from a bug, “nice” bug make SAM erratic and somehow “unpredictable”, but still a bug. And this bug were especially the reason why IADS (a real one) could never work.

not a bug, but bugS

as we all know, a real IADS would make use of the radars antennas and communication between the EWR …we never have had working EWR in the batallions !!

The only IADS there is in falcon is indeed, the concept of Ispotted or not which could accelerate the aquisition… but there was never such “Tactic” around all of this…

before BMS , there was not even radar steping concept !!

Sams batallions have been heavily buged those last 20 years .

[molnibalage]

@Mav-jp:

not a bug, but bugS

Sams batallions have been heavily buged those last 20 years .

Is there any chance to get rid of the system? It prevents tons of things.

[Mav-jp]

@molnibalage:

Is there any chance to get rid of the system? It prevents tons of things.

i dont understand your question

[molnibalage]

@Mav-jp:

i dont understand your question

SPOILER, if you are just a player do not read this.

Currently the radar slot defines where should be put the single radar in battalion. If the unit destroyed and are other radar guided SAM in the unit they goes silent forever. For ex if you put two SA-8 in slot 3 and 8 and 3rd slot is the radar and this unit is destroyed the other never will do anything. You can trick this system to assign radar slot to a combat vehicle but in case in ground battle is destroyed the tank/IFV/APC/etc. SAMs remain silent forever.

Because of this system is impossible to put EW and FCR for the same battalion… If you kill one of them the other goes silent as long as radar unit occupy the radar slot.

[Mav-jp]

@molnibalage:

SPOILER, if you are just a player do not read this.

Currently the radar slot defines where should be put the single radar in battalion. If the unit destroyed and are other radar guided SAM in the unit they goes silent forever. For ex if you put two SA-8 in slot 3 and 8 and 3rd slot is the radar and this unit is destroyed the other never will do anything. You can trick this system to assign radar slot to a combat vehicle but in case in ground battle is destroyed the tank/IFV/APC/etc. SAMs remain silent forever.

Because of this system is impossible to put EW and FCR for the same battalion… If you kill one of them the other goes silent as long as radar unit occupy the radar slot.

you could do the same trick as the SA11 then, put only 1 launcher in the unit and group unit then

or

you can wait for 3 to 4 weeks

[Dee-Jay]

you can wait for 3 to 4 weeks

Spoiler.

[Zaltys]

3-4 weeks? It’s twice more than I expected!

[Mav-jp]

@Zaltys:

3-4 weeks? It’s twice more than I expected!

Half than expected I would say

[molnibalage]

@Mav-jp:

you could do the same trick as the SA11 then, put only 1 launcher in the unit and group unit then

or

you can wait for 3 to 4 weeks

Yes, or only 1 rad SHORAD/ battalion but in this case harder to set RL qty. ratio and “hide” SAMs in battalion. I mentioned this in my doc. what I made for battalion and OOB creation.

[shisabandit]

Its been 3 to 4 weeks for 3 to 4 weeks now
infinity 3 to 4 weeks

But better later than never

[Shadow]

@shisabandit:

Its been 3 to 4 weeks for 3 to 4 weeks now
infinity 3 to 4 weeks

But better later than never

Some of the BMS team actually live on the Tardis so time for them is like Big ball of wibbly wobbly… time-y wimey… stuff.

I was actually in my late 30s when I swapped over to BMS (4.32), now I’m over 60. I blinked when I should have plinked.

[ArcherAC3]

Do you guys think it’s at the very least possible to create a functional IADS system in BMS, or is the engine in it’s core too limited/old for such feature? (hype me for 4.34)