Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...
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@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
But only one point of contact vs the Jet Seat with 8 motors translating to 6 zones of vibration? I mean turning left has the left side vibrating, firing the gun just has some of the right side vibrating, and taxiing over the gaps in the taxiway and you’ll have vibrations first on the motors under your knee the under your butt… How does the Buttkicker do these things?
The “how” is easy: MAGIC!
And you may think I’m joking, but I am not. And I’m also not talking about mystical forces, but actual Magic principles that one would learn if they actively wanted to cease procreating with all humans and become a performer of this form of entertainment. “What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes” … it’s all about misdirection. For the layman, it boils down to “just tricks”… but they work.
There is no stereo with a single unit attached to a pole, yet still, with the physical feedback and the visible & audible stimulus from the simulation on the computer, the mind completes the picture. Let’s not discount Andre’s work in this regard: using LFE like this Buttkicker Gamer 2 with solely the LFE sound channel going to the amplifier, it’s just dumb vibrations that even Main Menu Music could trigger… but with SimShaker Wings, the difference between the former is like being a blind person who is suddenly able to see for the first time.
@Atlas is using SimShaker Wings for the same purpose of only making events, not every sound play over the Buttkicker/JetSeat/Bass Transducers as you with the Buttkicker. But he is saying the JetSeat/JetPad gives you 6 zones.
Basically it’s one of those massage chair cushions that has USB that allows each motor to turn on when directed (has massage mode too) Imagine surround sound for your back and butt. So you can now feel things to the side or just in your back or in you bottom for more defined feel, not just one rumble (I also get multiple zone channels on my bass pucks). Buttkicker wins with overall power, it’s like that big car sub that you can hear from blocks away, but it shakes in it’s one location.
Copy that… I understand the construction of the JetSeat and pads, and was in consideration when I purchased my Buttkicker.
When racing using a force-feedback wheel like the G920, I can close my eyes and take my hands off the wheel, and feel the road - I certainly notice that the “feedback” is across my entire seat and body.
Once I open my eyes and place my hands back on the force-feedback wheel, the entire orchestra of sensations gets summed up by the brain, and as I see the car moving left, and feel a bump, my brain accurately places the location of the bump in 3D space regardless of whether I had not felt it more on the left side of my bottocks than my right, but centrally instead.
As far as the JetSeat and pads concept goes, I’ve never tried them to understand how different it would be to feel smaller vibrations in an array across left and right sides, higher or lower as coded for the events. While it might be an additional immersive layer to be able to feel it through tiny haptic points in the seat and seat back in addition to the entire chair, I can definitely say that even with a single point of contact and single transducer, Buttkicker is completely able to recreate very immersive and accurate feeling feedback thanks to SimShaker Wings (and SimShaker Wheels, ofc).
Even without SimShaker, it’s great for movies and music, as well. Like you said, like a big car sub - but luckily when wearing headphones, the rumbling can’t be heard more than a few meters outside my room with the door closed. I don’t let it clip and padded out all loose mechanical parts on this chair much like audio techs do to cars with subs.
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@SemlerPDX said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
As far as the JetSeat and pads concept goes, I’ve never tried them to understand how different it would be to feel smaller vibrations in an array across left and right sides, higher or lower as coded for the events.
This is what I’m trying to do, but the other way around. I have 6 vibration zones, you only have 1. If you think that 1 zone is able to do magic, think what 6 zones can do. The JetSeat has a demo mode where it’ll play wave sounds and the waves “come” and the waves “go” along with the sound. Just as you’ve explained, the mind kind of fills in the gaps, but as I feel the vibrations go from my knees to my butt to my back and then slowly stop from my back then my butt then my knees, that gives a whole lot more nuance to the sound and immersion, and so the mind doesn’t have such a big gap to fill.
@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
- 3rd Space Vest (specifically setup for ONLY Gs feedback)- BFM/ACM focused flight or maybe a serious A2G mission where I want to feel the specific edge right before I over G the stores
More info on that please? Would love to be able to have some body pressure to “feel” the G’s as currently the seat vibrations aren’t quite enough and I think aren’t quite “correct” either. You could have vibrations but no G (ie, stalling, engine vibrations, etc.) or lotsa G but little or no vibration.
Seems like you use the JetSeat more often and the Buttkicker is just there but barely used?
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@Atlas said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
@Snake122 said in Been Flying Allied Force for a Long Time...:
- 3rd Space Vest (specifically setup for ONLY Gs feedback)- BFM/ACM focused flight or maybe a serious A2G mission where I want to feel the specific edge right before I over G the stores
More info on that please? Would love to be able to have some body pressure to “feel” the G’s as currently the seat vibrations aren’t quite enough and I think aren’t quite “correct” either. You could have vibrations but no G (ie, stalling, engine vibrations, etc.) or lotsa G but little or no vibration.
Seems like you use the JetSeat more often and the Buttkicker is just there but barely used?
It’s an early haptic vest that has 8 pneumatic “fingers,” PS Cockpits supports it in BMS and I’ve written a really crude program for DCS. I have it setup to activate the lower back pair at around 5Gs, then the upper back pair at around 7Gs, and those values are adjustable. For negative Gs, top front of pair activate at around -.5Gs (simulates feeling the shoulder straps first, what I’ve always noticed negative G first IRL) then lower front pair at -1.5Gs. Requires a small air compressor that is included, but I’ve even moved away from it with a regular air brush compressor now. Compressor noise is part of why I don’t use it every time, also strapping in and out of it but when I have time, that gives a more fun detail. Overall, it gives a slightly uncomfortable pressure to know what’s going on with Gs. I believe it also has options for airbrakes and weapon release feedback too.
Yes, Buttkicker for me is not needed. JetPad turned up gives plenty of vibration, especially when the intense actions where it turns on all the zones. Buttkicker gets loud fast with my mostly wooden seat
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@Snake122 air compressor? I was thinking it was a vibrating vest or something. Can you link me to what you’re using?
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@Atlas hard to explain, but like I said, pneumatic “fingers”. When I learned it was pneumatic, I was thinking using it literally like a G Suit but those bladders are much bigger than the 3rd Space Vest. But a G Suit mode could be possible with the right support and unfolding the vest, but you would lose the negative G part and honestly, I think that is worth it not being a G Suit like thing.
It was one of the first haptic feedback vests and was designed to let a user playing FPSes (CoD2 is bundled and works with it) and was intended to let the players know what kind of damage they were receiving like getting shot or hit by a grenade, etc. Think more a point a little bigger than thumb size of pressure because it was making an impact simulation. The company’s website finally died recently apparently. There are a few reviews out there but not many of us have used them for flight sims. No one ever took me up on my software for DCS for it.
A “G Seat” with seatbelt tensioners would be my current choice if I was going to go for a tactile feedback system for fighters (even over a 6DOF motion platform), but the 3rd Space Vest, JetPad, and bass shakers give me most of what I would get then.
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@Snake122 I tired searching for it but it’s no longer there. I’ve seen seatbelt tensioners using RC servos but these seem noisy to begin with.