SA-10 launch, defending…
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Hi guys,
last night I flew an OCA strike in Korean theater. GBUs hit nicely and I was happily egressing when the dreaded thing happened: “10” appeared on RWR display. I put the radar at 3 o’clock, dived, maneouvered like hell, dumped chaff… and still got hit at about 200ft altitude (dived from 20k). Turned out I had 3 missiles on my tail. The question is: how to defend against SA-10s? During the same mission I dodged 3 or 4 SA-2s rather easily, but Grumble is different animal. Any tips?
Av.
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What works for me is to get low fast and if possible put some terrain between you and the launcher.
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Hi guys,
last night I flew an OCA strike in Korean theater. GBUs hit nicely and I was happily egressing when the dreaded thing happened: “10” appeared on RWR display. I put the radar at 3 o’clock, dived, maneouvered like hell, dumped chaff… and still got hit at about 200ft altitude (dived from 20k). Turned out I had 3 missiles on my tail. The question is: how to defend against SA-10s? During the same mission I dodged 3 or 4 SA-2s rather easily, but Grumble is different animal. Any tips?
Av.
Do not go close and fly higher than 100 ft in range.
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Unfortunately SA-10s were not in the briefing
Otherwise I’d plan low-level approach… -
Unfortunately SA-10s were not in the briefing
Otherwise I’d plan low-level approach…Which is good, 100% accurate recon data would make boring the game.
And in some aspect the capability of SA-10 is under modeled, it is not capable simultaneous engagement and killing the launched ARMs what can do in RL.
I’m not sure which S-300 version is modeled in Falcon from the following.S-300PT (SA-10A)
5V55K 47 km
RCG guidanceS-300 PT (SA-10)
5V55R
75 km
Command guidance after launch
SAAG from 10 km of the targetSA-20A is S-300PM/PMU-1 (Russian/export)
SA-20B is S-300PMU-2 for PRC, only export
SA-21 is S-400 -
Launch both AGM-88’s at max range in HAD (unless you see 2-SA-10’s then launch one at each) from 50 miles turn and hit the deck while waiting for your Harm’s to hit. Usually works. Realize that at that range the SA10 will be engaging you also. If you are at high altitude you will never evade that missile.
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If you don’t know where the SA-10 is and an SA-10 appears on the RWR then it is best to fly away from it immediately. If you think that you have been fired at then get below 100’ or put some terrain between you and the missile as others have suggested above. There is no launch warning with this system and ECM and chaff have no effect.
The SA-10 tends to shoot at around 50nm but the missile is very fast with a top speed of around mach 5.5 and will get to you fast. If you are being careful with the diamond on the 10 and listening to it with search and low priority mode, then you can hear a tone difference in the head set after it launches at you. Other than that, there is no launch warning. If you are able to detect the launch then you must pump before getting closer than 45nm or it will most likely chase and hit you unless you get low.
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If you are low enough at the moment of the launch, you can break the lock of the FCR and the missile will go ballistic. If the missile starts to track you, then you don’t have any other option than to out distance it. Put it on your six, hit the deck (less than 200 ft.) and go full burner in a straight line. Maneuvering will only slow you down, and you won’t out-fly the SA-10. Terrain masking also helps, but, good luck finding something to hide behind on Korea’s west side.
As a rule of thumb, I run SEAD and DEAD strikes prior to any OCA’s. Lots of enemy units not shown on the recon map in the early stages of the campaign.
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If you are low enough at the moment of the launch, you can break the lock of the FCR and the missile will go ballistic. If the missile starts to track you, then you don’t have any other option than to out distance it. Put it on your six, hit the deck (less than 200 ft.) and go full burner in a straight line. Maneuvering will only slow you down, and you won’t out-fly the SA-10. Terrain masking also helps, but, good luck finding something to hide behind on Korea’s west side.
As a rule of thumb, I run SEAD and DEAD strikes prior to any OCA’s. Lots of enemy units not shown on the recon map in the early stages of the campaign.
Yup, time some SEAD/DEAD packages to go in just before you. If they are going to implement the SA-10 then they should implement stand off jamming from EA-18Gs and the use of MALD-Js, miniature air launched decoys with jammers. Have them come in a different azimuth and saturate the SAMs with decoys.
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Here are some recent ACMI tapes against the SA-10.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ppn7beyjaoyhc8/TAPE0043.vhs?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eplai0m0wplsh4g/TAPE0045.vhs?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7v257x7svdaobe/TAPE0048.vhs?dl=0
Let me know if there are any problems downloading the files.
HTH
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Maneuvering will only slow you down, and you won’t out-fly the SA-10. Terrain masking also helps, but, good luck finding something to hide behind on Korea’s west side.
Not entirely true. One of the basis of defending against any missile type is that they have a set limited amount of energy to work with. Now it’s true if you are really close in to the launch site then your only hope is to get on the deck and put some terrain between you and the launch site to break the radar’s track. However if you are much closer to the limit of the missile then it can be defeated kinetically.
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Unfortunately SA-10s were not in the briefing
Otherwise I’d plan low-level approach…Yeah if you get surprised you have to assume you have been shot at as soon as you see that indication on the RTWS and immediately react accordingly. Even then it is no guarantee as the SA-10 is a deadly system. Comparing it to any SA-2 through SA-5 system is silliness as those systems are easily defeated with proper reactions.
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I have never seen that happen except for being right on top of the site. I have broken lock notching from high altitude at long range launches though. I also now see PRC SA 10’s go active at 15 miles while I am attacking an SA2 close by; talk about the pucker factor! @Stubbies2003:
Not entirely true. One of the basis of defending against any missile type is that they have a set limited amount of energy to work with. Now it’s true if you are really close in to the launch site then your only hope is to get on the deck and put some terrain between you and the launch site to break the radar’s track. However if you are much closer to the limit of the missile then it can be defeated kinetically.
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I have never seen that happen except for being right on top of the site. I have broken lock notching from high altitude at long range launches though. I also now see PRC SA 10’s go active at 15 miles while I am attacking an SA2 close by; talk about the pucker factor!
Yeah the point I was trying to make is you cannot make a blanket statement about missile defense like don’t bother to maneuver it doesn’t help kind of statements. Most everything is situational depending on the conditions you find yourself in. Speaking of finding yourself in a situation defending against an SA-10 and and SA-2 would be just a hoot.
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If there was only one SA-10 in the air, defeating kinetically is fine, but a high G turn is going to bleed a lot of air speed. How are you going to defeat the next one…and the next one after that? I usually find out how many were launched at me in the debrief, but have to make assumptions that more than one is fired, when in flight. Turn and burn in the weeds is the best bet, but I’m not saying you have to do it my way. I am just offering up my experience.
It has been a long, long time since I fragged a OCA or Strike package without at least sending a Recon flight, SEAD, or DEAD, to find out what I’m up against, and suppress the SAM’s in the area. That being said, I’m not usually at 20K when I see the 10 on my RWR, but when I do find myself in this situation, the 10 is usually outside the lethal range and I just steer clear of it, make a note of approximate location and make plans to eliminate it later.
This is mainly the reason I take control of my squadron in the Campaign. Flying an F-16 (night or day) 100 miles into enemy territory with ADS systems active is just madness. If you pop up in close vicinity to an SA-10 site and don’t know it’s there, you did something wrong, IMO.
I’m not saying you are wrong Stubbies2003, but I have found success doing it “my way” and while I still have a ton of respect for the Grumble, I’m pretty comfortable dealing with it now.
Side note: I even had a SA-10 fired on me from a moving column. They may have stopped to fire (recon screen showed they traveled about 10 miles during the course of my flight), but in RL, I believe the system takes an hour or so to set up, so that was a bit unrealistic. Maybe it makes up for some of the deficiencies Molni mentioned above. :wfish:
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Pardon me, but regarding SAMs like the SA-10 you can, and should make a few blanket statements, and not attempting to outmanoeuvre them is one of those. With that range, support for multiple concurrent launches and soft locking, you’ll just be relying on pure luck trying to outmanoeuvre it. Unless you positively know that you’re at the edge of its range, dive for the deck. If I stumbled so close as to be able to see the smoke trail from a launch whilst at above low altitude, I’d rather take my chances with a 90° dive and lighting the burners.
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SEAD/DEAD is the most fun I think
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If there was only one SA-10 in the air, defeating kinetically is fine, but a high G turn is going to bleed a lot of air speed. How are you going to defeat the next one…and the next one after that? I usually find out how many were launched at me in the debrief, but have to make assumptions that more than one is fired, when in flight. Turn and burn in the weeds is the best bet, but I’m not saying you have to do it my way. I am just offering up my experience.
Well because you don’t do high G airspeed wasting turns is why. Missiles fly lead pursuit so you want to cause as many turning and angle problems for them as possible which expends their limited energy. High G turns aren’t required to do that and because they bleed of speed are counter productive.
I’m not saying you are wrong Stubbies2003, but I have found success doing it “my way” and while I still have a ton of respect for the Grumble, I’m pretty comfortable dealing with it now.
No but you made an assumption on what kind of turns I was talking about to help defeat it kinetically. Your assumption happened to be wrong.
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Pardon me, but regarding SAMs like the SA-10 you can, and should make a few blanket statements, and not attempting to outmanoeuvre them is one of those. With that range, support for multiple concurrent launches and soft locking, you’ll just be relying on pure luck trying to outmanoeuvre it. Unless you positively know that you’re at the edge of its range, dive for the deck. If I stumbled so close as to be able to see the smoke trail from a launch whilst at above low altitude, I’d rather take my chances with a 90° dive and lighting the burners.
If you are that close you’d be lucky to survive an SA-6 let alone a SA-10. My clarification on this one is I am talking about kinetic defeats based on energy states not out maneuvering the missile. That is based on distance to the launch site which you can get an idea of from RTWS or if you have the HTS installed even better.
