4.32 Enemy air to air missiles evasion TE
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Have been playing this TE and i merge head on with a Mig 29. As i am head on with it, it doesnt fire until really close, like 4 or 5nm and it fires an AA-10B Alamo. Looking at the tacref it has the AA-10B as having a range of between 22-37nm (think max of 22nm for firing at rear of target, 37nm for front) so why does he fire so close when he must realize i’m an F-16 most likely armed with AMRAAMs? the only reason why i didnt fire at it (and i have 6 AMRAAMs) is due to the purpose of the TE- practice A2A missile evasion.
Another thing is the B model is IR guided…find it hard to believe that an IR guided missile can have such long range as they’re all supposed to be fired WVR, so is that an error in the tacref?
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…. they’re all supposed to be fired WVR …
Not so. There are long/med-range IR versions. I think, some are initially guided by a ‘data link’ to the launch AC radar, for example. Others have an LOAL capability. Check the MICA-IR, for example.
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The idea of such a long range IR missile is that you remain locked on target, in order to keep sending updates to the missile(s), until it’s at a range where its own seeker should be able to pick up the intended target. Pretty much the same as an AIM-120, except the other guy doesn’t get a RWR indication once the missile goes ‘active’.
So such IR missiles are not fire-and-forget, like most think (and I’ve seen some guys employ them like that in BMS already, at ranges beyond 40NM
). In fact, from what I’ve heard, if you fire it and (are forced to) break lock before the missile can see anything, it will just go ballistic and not track anything.As to why he didn’t fire before such a close range? No idea, except maybe that AI thinks that all IR missiles are short range, or that he can only fire when IR seeker is able to immediately pick up targets?
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The idea of such a long range IR missile is that you remain locked on target, in order to keep sending updates to the missile(s), until it’s at a range where its own seeker should be able to pick up the intended target. Pretty much the same as an AIM-120, except the other guy doesn’t get a RWR indication once the missile goes ‘active’.
So such IR missiles are not fire-and-forget, like most think (and I’ve seen some guys employ them like that in BMS already, at ranges beyond 40NM
). In fact, from what I’ve heard, if you fire it and (are forced to) break lock before the missile can see anything, it will just go ballistic and not track anything.As to why he didn’t fire before such a close range? No idea, except maybe that AI thinks that all IR missiles are short range, or that he can only fire when IR seeker is able to immediately pick up targets?
I see so the B model is better in that it has IR terminal guidance, only unlike an AIM-120 it will go ballistic if radar lock is lost before it goes terminal with its’ IR seeker. Pretty sure the AIM-120 doesnt just fall out the sky or go ballistic if radar lock is lost before pitbull. That must explain it then as to why he fires WVR as like you said the AI is programmed that way. Good thing is that i wont know if a Mig 29 has the A or B model loaded so i’d have to just presume he has the A.
Having said that if he has the A model (SARH) then when he fires shouldnt i get a launch warning on my TWP?
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Not so. There are long/med-range IR versions. I think, some are initially guided by a ‘data link’ to the launch AC radar, for example. Others have an LOAL capability. Check the MICA-IR, for example.
Ah yea the MICA-IR i had Rafales armed with those in a CMANO scenario. BVR with IR terminal guidance forgot about that one, cheers lads.
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The way that the IR missiles behave in BMS is not like SARH. They don’t need to be supported with the radar. The AA-10B’s seeker can only lock on to a front aspect F-16 in mil power at about 7nm. In AB it can lock on to an F-16 front aspect at about 22nm and guide the whole way to the target on its own. Managing the AB is very important with IR missiles because it effects the seeker’s range a lot. I have even seen the range reduced further on AC that are landing with their throttle lower than mil.
The MICA is incredible. It’s seeker can lock onto front aspect F-16’s in mil at 38nm. 49nm in AB. It can’t fly that far though.
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The way that the IR missiles behave in BMS is not like SARH. They don’t need to be supported with the radar.
Doesn’t that make make medium- / long-range IR missiles extremely overpowered? E.g. the MICA-IR of which you said:
The MICA is incredible. It’s seeker can lock onto front aspect F-16’s in mil at 38nm. 49nm in AB. It can’t fly that far though.
Even assuming the max range of a MICA-IR is 30NM, that is still well beyond anything other guys in BMS can throw at you, unless you let them sneak up on you. All you need to do is see a target on RADAR, soft-lock it to have the IR looking in the right direction (I assume that is still necessary at least?), launch at max range and turn cold.
On the other side, as defender, once you know you’re up against MICA-IR, you can only make sure you maintain your MAR of 30NM, knowing full well there’s nothing you can do until they’re out of missiles. Good luck with that against even a single Mirage 2000, with up to 6 MICA-IR, and the Rafale can carry 10… Really, all you need for DCA is a few Rafales every 60NM and you can deny access to any- and everyone until your aircraft are running on fumes.
IRL however, I have it from good sources that you would never fire an IR missile BVR, unless you back it up with continued datalink information until the missile is assumed to be WVR (comsider it some IR equivalent of MPRF), as there would be so many chances of interference (e.g. clouds, haze, sun or sun glare, flares, aircraft reducing IR signature or turning cold, …) that your missile would be trashed before it can even get close enough to be considered a challenge.
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The A model of the AA-10 being SARH, would i get a launch warning on my TWP if one is fired at me?
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The Mica IR’s effective range is around 14 to 22nm. Give it a try. One issue with the IR missiles that I could see is that it can be hard to get the seeker to lock a specific target if there are several in the area. It may lock onto a hotter target that is closer than what is locked on the radar so there is that risk. I found that a MAR of around 14nm works against the Rafale C armed with Mica IR missiles.
With SARH missiles the RWR if in Handoff mode will give a launch warning.
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IR missiles also have inherently bigger drag because of their nose shape, so they will lack range compared to equivalent (S)ARH missiles.
The AA-10B (or D) are fired late because their seeker isnt all that great. I believe their philosophy wasnt really BVR but rather shooting down an extending enemy as he tries to escape a WVR engagment.
Oh, and TacRef isnt really to be trusted 100% by the number…. lack of maintainance over the years, basically.
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The Mica IR’s effective range is around 14 to 22nm. Give it a try. […] I found that a MAR of around 14nm works against the Rafale C armed with Mica IR missiles.
I have different experience, though I must add the launch aircraft parameters were pretty unrealistic to begin with.
This was during a PvP coop, and our squadron’s first encounter with the MICA-IR. Our estimates with it being an IR missile, was that a MAR of ±15NM (20NM max) would have been more than enough. Until we went up… 
First MICA-IR shot, at 37.2NM
Two missiles en-route. Turning cold and lock broken at 35.7NM (6 seconds after first shot).
Splash one.
Splash two.
Kills: 2x F-16C
Closest distance to target: 31.2NM -
Well, your ACMI gives the answer as to why they had such a long range
Also, the fact they are IR means they can turn away directly, so the concept of MAR has to be readjusted as well.
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MICA has totally unrealistic lock range as I can remember. I guess because LoAL of MICA IR cannot be modelled. As I can remember R-40T also has totally unreal seeker range.
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Also, the fact they are IR means they can turn away directly, so the concept of MAR has to be readjusted as well.
But as said before, even though you technically can, you wouldn’t employ them in that way IRL. So either everyone using them should do so realistically (nearly impossible to enforce), the IR seeker accuracy needs to be reduced (sort of a sim handicap to simulate RL limitations) or BMS needs to model IR limitations/capabilities better (which probably isn’t possible at this time, I assume?)
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Just to get this out of the way : MICA IR capabilities are quite good actually, IRL, in good conditions, you can use the seeker head as a “poor man’s IRST”.
Now, indeed, IIRC, moisture and clouds do not impact IR seekers in BMS, which is kind of a shame.
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IRL however, I have it from good sources that you would never fire an IR missile BVR…
Interestingly, I think that Russian doctrine is looser with its IR missile roe (tho certainly not in all circumstances I expect). Iirc in the real life SU27 manual it is encouraged, or suggested, that you should launch 27ETs from bvr, even using the Launch Override command if lock is not achievable from those distances.
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Nice long shot. Ranges obviously can increase if the seeker and/or radar can still track the target when flying mach snot in the nose bleed zone.
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I know one thing the 29 must have a hell of a jammer I can lock them up at 20 miles or more and about the time i get ready to launch they turn on their jammers and break lock and I can’t reastablish a lock and once in a while i end up donning a silk overcoat
I know they run like hell and dive to the ground then turn as soon as you give up pursuit and most of the time my wingmen are worthless I think I’m, going to have to change tacktics any good advice
