Can't manual trim with AP DISC …
-
Hi -
4.33_U1: I’ve found that with TRIM PANEL’s TRIM AP/DISC switch in the DISC position, manual trim via keyboard (e.g. the SimTrim… call backs) DO move the dials on the MANUAL TRIM PANEL, but DO NOT alter the flight trajectory. If I flip TRM AP/DISC back to NORM position, whatever trim settings showing on the MANUAL TRIM PANEL suddenly take effect. Is this normal operation, or do I have a bug in my keymap file or elsewhere? My related keymap file entries are as shown here:
…
#===================================================================================
SimDoNothing -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 -1 “2.04 MANUAL TRIM PANEL”
SimTrimRollLeft 309 0 0XD3 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: ROLL TRIM Wheel - L WING DN”
SimTrimRollRight 309 0 0XD1 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: ROLL TRIM Wheel - R WING DN”
SimTrimAPDisc 310 0 0X1E 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: TRIM/AP DISC Switch - Toggle”
SimTrimAPDISC 310 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “TRIM: TRIM/AP DISC Switch - DISC”
SimTrimAPNORM 310 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “TRIM: TRIM/AP DISC Switch - NORM”
SimTrimYawLeft 116 0 0XD2 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: YAW TRIM Knob - L”
SimTrimYawRight 116 0 0XC9 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: YAW TRIM Knob - R”
SimTrimNoseUp 309 0 0XCF 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: PITCH TRIM Wheel - NOSE UP”
SimTrimNoseDown 309 0 0XC7 5 0 0 1 “TRIM: PITCH TRIM Wheel - NOSE DN”
SimDoNothing -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 -0 “REM: Trim-Reset (change @ CKPIT)”
…
#===================================================================================
SimDoNothing -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 -1 “5.11 FLIGHT STICK”
AFElevatorTrimUp -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “STICK: TRIM Up - Nose Down”
AFElevatorTrimDown -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “STICK: TRIM Down - Nose Up”
AFAileronTrimLeft -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “STICK: TRIM Left - Roll Left”
AFAileronTrimRight -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 1 “STICK: TRIM Right - Roll Right”
SimDoNothing -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 -0 " REM: Trim-Reset (change @ CKPIT)"
…
#===================================================================================
SimDoNothing -1 0 0XFFFFFFFF 0 0 0 -2 “9.10 STICK POV HAT - Normal”
AFElevatorTrimUp 0 -1 -3 0 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Up”
SimDoNothing 0 -1 -3 1 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Up-Right”
AFAileronTrimRight 0 -1 -3 2 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Right”
SimDoNothing 0 -1 -3 3 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Right-Down”
AFElevatorTrimDown 0 -1 -3 4 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Down”
SimDoNothing 0 -1 -3 5 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Down-Left”
AFAileronTrimLeft 0 -1 -3 6 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Left”
SimDoNothing 0 -1 -3 7 0X00 -1 “STICK: POV Left-Up”
… -
Take a look in the -1 manual. Located in your docs folder. There you will find many answers.
-
sounds like a bug in the BMS programming. The TRIM AP/DISC is supposed to disengage the AP and disable the trim motors. That means the stick trim wont work, but the manual knobs still will.
If it doesnt work that way in BMS, that sounds like a bug to me. Likely not a bug in your keyfile though, if the manual describes this operation that way.
-
Hi -
Thanks for comments. TO-BMS1F-16CM-1.pdf p.17 that describes the MANUAL TRIM panel, and the TRIM A/P DISC switch says: “In DISC the stick trims and the autopilot are inhibited. Manual trim remains operative.” But my set-up seems to behave differently. That’s why I posed the question -
Update: I ran with “BMS - Basic.key” that is un-altered from U1 installation, and operated the MANUAL TRIM panel only with mouse clicks. Same behavior that I described below. So at least its not my key file -
I’d be interested if anyone else can confirm same behavior?
-
I just tried and confirm the behaviour. With analogue axis as well.
It’s the case in 4.32 as well.Need to investigate now if it’s a bug in the manual or in the code?
In the real jet the Man trims indicators are linked mechanically to the man trim wheels.
The man trim wheels and therefore their needle can move with no power on the jet. The control surfaces though do not move unless hydraulic power is present (thus engine running)So we need to see - and I believe it’s what happens in BMS now - if the MAN TRIM wheels are indeed moving but generate no trim movement with the A/P switch in DISC. When the TRIM/AP switch is placed back to NORM, then the trim needle position s therefore applied to the control surfaces.
Indeed, the real Dash 1 says that the trim motors should be inhibited but that the man trim wheels should still move, it doest say if the control surfaces moves according to man trim wheels action (like with a cold jet - man trim moving but no control surfaces movement)Question to the OP: why do you use TRIM/AP switch?
Red Dog
Reality if for ppl who can't handle simulation -
@Red:
I just tried and confirm the behaviour. With analogue axis as well.
It’s the case in 4.32 as well.Need to investigate now if it’s a bug in the manual or in the code?
In the real jet the Man trims indicators are linked mechanically to the man trim wheels.
The man trim wheels and therefore their needle can move with no power on the jet. The control surfaces though do not move unless hydraulic power is present (thus engine running)So we need to see - and I believe it’s what happens in BMS now - if the MAN TRIM wheels are indeed moving but generate no trim movement with the A/P switch in DISC. When the TRIM/AP switch is placed back to NORM, then the trim needle position s therefore applied to the control surfaces.
Indeed, the real Dash 1 says that the trim motors should be inhibited but that the man trim wheels should still move, it doest say if the control surfaces moves according to man trim wheels action (like with a cold jet - man trim moving but no control surfaces movement)Question to the OP: why do you use TRIM/AP switch?
Its not ambiguously worded in English. The real dash one says that the manual trim is still operative with the switch in DISC. If that is not the case, then it is a pretty serious issue with the actual jet manual. Seeing as its not been changed in over 20 years of dash ones… Id say the manual as written has it correct.
Still, like you say, it doesnt hurt at all to check if it is in fact a bug in the manual. Definitely better to make sure code changes are based on feedback from multiple sources, rather than just one interpretation of the manual.
-
You know, we have had issues with real F-16 driver in the dev team giving contradictory information than what’s in the real dash-1.
the dash -1 is far from being very clear on some aspect, sometime it is very elusive and sometime, although it is quite rare just plain wrong.
So part of the investigating work is to be sure how it behave in the real jet. And to do that, we have to rule out any possible confusion present in the dash 1 as well.
I’m not saying it’s the case here, but i am saying that we need to have it 100% sure before modifying anything in BMS as the trim is pretty complicated stuff- stick trim
- man trim
- shared memory
- TFR
- AP paddle
All this is interconnected and working pretty well currently in BMS - we need to ensure that fixing this tiny detail here will not screw all the other systems.
-
Hi -
“why do I use TRIM/AP switch?”
I’ve been tinkering with keyboard layout that I find more-intuitive for the very many controls; it has helped me to explore all the different capabilities of this great sim! So far, I’ve been able to understand / straighten out all of the oddities that I created in tinkering with the assignments. But in working through panels, checking assignments, this is one aspect that I’ve stumbled upon and haven’t been able to reconcile. So I thought I’d ask -
Its just a curiosity; not essential to flying the jet or enjoying the sim.
But if my key-file or config. settings were responsible, I’d want to understand and fix it. -
There is nothing wrong with your key file.
But as RD pointed out either the Manual is wrong or it is not correctly implemented.
This is under investigation.
Thanks for pointing it out.And have fun learning other aspects of this sim as well
-
The DISC position of the switch “Deenergizes stick TRIM button, prevents autopilot engagement and ATF/autopilot blending, and deactivates trim motors (manual trim wheels still operative)”
WTF is a trim motor?
-
the stick trim hat does not directly connect to the FLCS. The manual trim panel is connected to the FLCS. Its knobs are motorised, so that when you operate the stick trim hat, it moves the trim wheels physically - which in turn adjusts trim. Put it in DISC and now the trim motors are not operative - meaning the stick trim has no effect, but the manual trim still works.
-
Ah so the wheels/needles are motorized to the system values normally. The wheels in BMS are different where center = no change and not center = continually change. It sounds like the real wheels you move to a setting.
-
the wheels are mechanically attached to the needles. you move the wheels, the needle moves. position controls position, no calculus required.
-
The wheels in BMS are different where center = no change and not center = continually change. It sounds like the real wheels you move to a setting.
Might still be true for keystrokes or mouse but I do believe this was corrected as we had many runaway trim problems in BMS at time of testing
In any way that is wrong with analogue axis assigned as this is what I use and different from what you explain.These trim wheels and motors are a viperpit builder nightmare
Red Dog
Reality if for ppl who can't handle simulation -
@Red:
Might still be true for keystrokes or mouse but I do believe this was corrected as we had many runaway trim problems in BMS at time of testing
In any way that is wrong with analogue axis assigned as this is what I use and different from what you explain.These trim wheels and motors are a viperpit builder nightmare
I can verify what Blu3wolf is saying about aircraft trim operation as being correct. If you manually move the trim wheels with it in Trim AP/Disc it WILL trim the aircraft as the MTP is where the trim changes are actually made. The stick trim simply slowly moves the motorized MTP wheels according to the command entered. No trim input until Trim AP/Disc back in normal is in fact wrong compared to how the real aircraft behaves.
