Does POS-RUK mode for HARMs work well on BMS?
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I’ll try one more time. The way RUK is coded in BMS:
When the current STP is >60nm it is coded to do a loft program even when the seeker locks on a target a short range. And the HARM goes up to 30k feet or it hits behind the target.The code is real close. If the STP is <30nm from the a/c not the target(STP can be behind your a/c), the missile will fly LOS to the target.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2185&d=1270401654&stc=1
Thanks a lot for the explanation Caper, i will try with this too. And i think it’s very important this clarification to be present on the BMS manual on the future. I would even report it, if i knew to who report it.
Now i will have to wait until tomorrow to test all explained here :(.
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Thanks a lot for the explanation Caper, i will try with this too. And i think it’s very important this clarification to be present on the BMS manual on the future. I would even report it, if i knew to who report it.
Now i will have to wait until tomorrow to test all explained here :(.
Good luck with that.
I had misses using RUK and never knew why….now I do…Thanks to this thread.
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I just did a test myself. I set STPT5 at an SA-2 site and STPT6 approx. 70nm beyond the SA-2. I called up RUK and selected the SA-2 and STPT6, put the FPM on the SA-2 site (you can see a smoke plume in my HUD shot) and fired. The HARM flew right over the SA-2 and headed direct to STPT6.
While defensive I called up RUK again, selected SA-2 and STPT5 this time. Fired and killed the Fan Song.
If the seeker activates immediately after launch and the target was well within the seeker’s FOV, why did it ignore the target right in front of it?
Are you sure you set each missile properly with threat and submode? They are individually configurable except for steerpoint. I’ll try to launch a RUK HARM over the top of a threat between me and it and see if it detects and goes terminal on the overfly threat. I’ve found launching RUK on actively engaging SA-2s to be problematic. I think in engagement the radar beam is very narrow so your RWR sees it but the HARM slightly away won’t.
Seeker going to lose search width with loft angle. FOV is 45* (from tecref). Take your flashlight and point it up as if it is a missile in a loft profile and see how much coverage is on the floor. I doubt if RUK goes for max range via lofting.
I don’t care if RUK LOBL or LOAL a micro second after launch. I can see advantages if it did/could lock on the rail.
The HARM shouldn’t even activate its seeker in EOM until it’s very close to the expected threat anyway. You should be able to fire an EOM HARM “over the shoulder” provided you’re within the MMZ and then only when in a good position and look direction activate the narrow search. Maybe I’m too close and the EOM is activating by simple proximity instead of by directional proximity? More testing required. Honestly my best off-axis shot was a RUK because of it’s early and wide seeker FOV. I really expect a 5-10nm EOM shot to be a lot more aggressive turning for off-axis.
RUK does loft but apparently proportional to the range to steerpoint. Honestly I haven’t seen much difference in profile from all 3 submodes. I’ve launched a PB, EOM, and RUK at the same steerpoint within a few seconds and they behave very similarly. As for “I could see the advantages” I could too but let’s keep it focused on what is the case, not what the designers of the weapon could have done.
Frederf, could you please tell me what “LOAL” and “LOBL” mean? I was following the discussion well and with a lot of interest but i got lost there. :(.
Lock on before/after launch. Usually pronounced “low-al” “low-boll.” Maverick is a LOBL missile. GBU-12 is a LOAL …err bomb. Hellfire can do either depending on what shape you want it to fly or if you have off-board designation. Technically AIM-9 can do either but it’s recommended to LOBL. Javelin is LOBL. Stinger is LOBL. AIM-120 is freaking complicated but generally LOAL. It’s a question of when the onboard and/or terminal seeking mechanism acquires the target before or after launch.
The HARM has INS guidance and radiation homing guidance so it’s a question of which guidance do you mean. Because we don’t have datalink control over HARMs the INS guidance is always determined before launch so that goes without saying. The radiation homing guidance varies so it’s meaningful to ask if it acquired the radiation before launch or not. Harm-as-sensor (HAS) is the only method of employment where the radiation is acquired by the missile prior to launch. It’s effectively an anti-radiation Maverick in HAS mode.
MORE TESTING!
I think EOM sucks for off axis (60 deg+). It takes its time and lazily circles around even at short ranges which takes forever so the missile times out before it can arrive. It really needs to pull more Gs trading energy for angles for shorter ranges. I know it can pull harder. I’ve seen it when it detects in RUK with the wide FOV. Predicted TOF is something like 1:05 but it’s out there for 2-3min. EOM TOF is supposed to be for current conditions (including turns) assuming within MMZ. If not in MMZ predicted TOF should be clamped to the nearest edge of MMZ envelope. PB TOF is for launch conditions which are pretty strict (±5 deg heading, within max/min toss markers).
EOM and HAD shots appear identical except HAD shots don’t show “target locked” in external view text.
I attempted to fire a RUK against a STPT beyond an SA-3 and it flew over the top in most (all? I forget now) cases. I’m not sure if SA-3 deaggregation or HARM view limits or HARM logic is to blame.
EVEN MORE TESTING!!
Fired 4 HARMs at minimum intervals at PTT57 SA-4, HARM TE. Range was at the 00:00 timer and box flash, on axis, approx 1 sec intervals. All three POS shots flew in perfect formation for most of the flight. The only differences was in terminal behavior. RUK found target first but followed similar path. Missiles differed slightly in azimuth (degree or so) but they all steered back toward target before terminal. The fourth HARM fired was a HAD shot that followed a significantly lower profile (30,000’ v 40,000’ peak altitude) but arrived nearly the same timing of launch behind the first three.
TESTING OFF-AXIS
Same as above except intentional 20 degree launch misalignment. Same initial behavior as before except RUK’s early turn to target in azimuth paid dividends for arriving first followed by PB and lastly EOM which was first to launch, last to arrive but not by much. HAD shot again flew lower than POS but also flew similarly tighter heading profile arriving at a similar time as RUK despite being the last launch. -
The HARM shouldn’t even activate its seeker in EOM until it’s very close to the expected threat anyway. You should be able to fire an EOM HARM “over the shoulder” provided you’re within the MMZ and then only when in a good position and look direction activate the narrow search. Maybe I’m too close and the EOM is activating by simple proximity instead of by directional proximity? More testing required. Honestly my best off-axis shot was a RUK because of it’s early and wide seeker FOV. I really expect a 5-10nm EOM shot to be a lot more aggressive turning for off-axis.
Don’t care about EOM. It’s OT. Thread is about RUK, a self protection and target of opportunity mode for target that are not pre-planed with a STP. However, I have killed SA-6 emitter firing when the target was just in front of my 3/9 line. <shrug>The turn radius was about 5nm, too much it took forever to hit the target. It
RUK does loft but apparently proportional to the range to steerpoint. Honestly I haven’t seen much difference in profile from all 3 submodes. I’ve launched a PB, EOM, and RUK at the same steerpoint within a few seconds and they behave very similarly. As for “I could see the advantages” I could too but let’s keep it focused on what is the case, not what the designers of the weapon could have done.
That’s the way the code works. It appears to have a loft flight profile and LOS flight profile depending on STP range.
RUK problem is if the STP range calls for the loft program it cant hit a target at short range. If this is the way it works in r/l it’s a sh*ty weapon system and it would be foolish to call RUK a “self protection” or “target of opportunity” mode.
jmfo :)</shrug> -
If this is the way it works in r/l it’s a sh*ty weapon system and it would be foolish to call RUK a “self protection” or “target of opportunity” mode.
Couldn’t agree more!
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Are you sure you set each missile properly with threat and submode?
100% positive. SA-2 was at STPT5, STPT6 was 66.1nm beyond that. Essentially the SA-2 (and STPT5) were between me and STPT6.
First shot: RUK SA-2 handoff, STPT6 selected. Fired 13.0nm from SA-2 (which was engaging me). I was at 17,600’ in a ~13* dive (as seen in the picture). When the HARM came off the rail it slowly leveled out to a 1*~2* climb and flew right over the SA-2 at 17,500’.
Second shot: RUK SA-2 handoff, STPT5 selected. Fired 9.4nm from SA-2 (which was still engaging me). I was at 12,700’ in a ~10* dive. When the HARM came off the rail it flew 5* down until about 5nm and went into a 20* dive straight for the Fan Song.
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There exists a self-projection method of employing HARMs but possibly not in F-16 and definitely not in BMS. I think real F/A-18 has such a thing. It links with onboard RWR and is left “hot” such that it auto launches. BTW “target of opportunity” is synonymous with “missile as sensor.” The reason the blue background picture shows the TOO footprint like that is because that’s what you can expect firing HAS. TOO = HAS. HAS = TOO. RUK is a submode of position-known which is not TOO. Flying around with the HARM in HAS is effectively electronic reconnaissance. To actually fire when in HAS is to fire TOO. AhhhhhhhHHHHH!!! I have to stop learning about real HARMs. BMS isn’t exact and it’s going to drive me crazy!
You know the HARM AMZ/MMZ cue should be either 80nm or 40nm depending on FCR range or if not set automatic based on other factors? The HAD footprint is just painted on when in RL it’s dynamically calculated. HARM launch isn’t inhibited properly in EOM/PB either when outside parameters.
Yeah, I was too. RUK doesn’t seem to reliable to pick up overfly threats. I’ll try some more scenarios such as overflight of an SA-2 en route to another SA-2. Try to avoid engagement situations as I think those are inherently less straightforward. Let’s try firing over yellows 2s, nothing red or flashing.
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i always thought that RUK was a ‘beam-riding’ mode like the older shrike? it finds a radar beam and then rides it down the line? if not, is there a mode like this? generally when i use HARMs i’m just using them as a PB radar killer, wiping out position-known lowblows and stuff, never used RUK though that’s what i assumed. weird that it relies on steerpoints. the HAD serves pretty well for popups, anyway. lock on with HAD point nose at target (hopefully before missile intercept) fire, then make your defensive turn when the missile approaches. HARM are autonomous, aren’t they?
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also i was curious earlier, and since this is a HARM thread i’ll ask: do the lower-tier SAs emit on their own? me and my brother were flying SEAD about a week ago, and we had fan song B on STPT 10, then SA-2s on 11, 12 13 14 etc so we both go to PB, i shoot on fan song, then SA-2, then brother fires both of his at SA-2s as well. we hit the fan song and then the rest of them missed, even though we later confirmed that the SAs were still there. why did the HARMs miss?
random chance? because the fan song was gone it had nothing to home to? because the SA2s don’t emit, only the fan song? anyone know how the PB seeking works, exactly? would be nice to know for instance if we should magnum at the SAs before destroying the fan song, or if we shouldn’t shoot.
got the whole battalion with rockeyes anyway, but still it was perplexing.
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F16 has a self-protect mode which is coupled with the RUK submode and HAS
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@Cik:
also i was curious earlier, and since this is a HARM thread i’ll ask: do the lower-tier SAs emit on their own? me and my brother were flying SEAD about a week ago, and we had fan song B on STPT 10, then SA-2s on 11, 12 13 14 etc so we both go to PB, i shoot on fan song, then SA-2, then brother fires both of his at SA-2s as well. we hit the fan song and then the rest of them missed, even though we later confirmed that the SAs were still there. why did the HARMs miss?
random chance? because the fan song was gone it had nothing to home to? because the SA2s don’t emit, only the fan song? anyone know how the PB seeking works, exactly? would be nice to know for instance if we should magnum at the SAs before destroying the fan song, or if we shouldn’t shoot.
got the whole battalion with rockeyes anyway, but still it was perplexing.
The HARMs missed, and they always will mis because it’s an anti-radiation emiter missiles. That means that it will only hit radar, which are the source of the radiations. As i understand you, you and your brother fired the first HARM to the SA-2 site radar, which is the Fan Song B, and it hit it as it suppose to. But after that you both tried to hit the LAUNCHERS (you call them SA-2) with the HARMS. You will never be able to do that, the launchers do not emit.
When people talk about SA-2, SA-3, and so on, they are referrring to the wholl SAM site, which includes launchers and radar.
Resuming, use HARM only against the radar of the SAM site, the rest you will have to use CBU, GBU, maverick or any other weapon. Otherwise you will waste a lot of HARMs. -
Initial version of HARM “wasn’t” made to destroy SAMs. Main purpose was to have something dangerous enough to frighten radar operators in order to force them to keep their stuff off. … Latest versions are definitively closer to the “absolute” weapon, much closer to a small JSOW with an additional EM senor rather than pure Anti Radar weapon.
… the differences between SEAD and DEAD.
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The HARMs missed, and they always will mis because it’s an anti-radiation emiter missiles. That means that it will only hit radar, which are the source of the radiations. As i understand you, you and your brother fired the first HARM to the SA-2 site radar, which is the Fan Song B, and it hit it as it suppose to. But after that you both tried to hit the LAUNCHERS (you call them SA-2) with the HARMS. You will never be able to do that, the launchers do not emit.
When people talk about SA-2, SA-3, and so on, they are referrring to the wholl SAM site, which includes launchers and radar.
Resuming, use HARM only against the radar of the SAM site, the rest you will have to use CBU, GBU, maverick or any other weapon. Otherwise you will waste a lot of HARMs.cool, thanks for explaining man! i read on wikipedia that the higher tier SAs sa10+(?) have radar as part of the launcher unit, do these rely on a site radar to shoot at you, and if there is one can they lock on their own? is this modelled in game?
thanks for the info, it’s nice to know that SA2s etc become totally useless once the fan song is gone. makes it much less scary to come in with rockeyes.
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@Cik:
cool, thanks for explaining man! i read on wikipedia that the higher tier SAs sa10+(?) have radar as part of the launcher unit, do these rely on a site radar to shoot at you, and if there is one can they lock on their own? is this modelled in game?
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Yes they are in the game. They are called TELAR’s (Transporter, Erector, Launcher and Radar). They are, iirc, SA-11, SA-15, SA-17, SA-19. For those, each vehicle has it’s own radar for fire control and/or missile guideance. For other models (SA-2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10), in BMS, there is only a central fire control/missile guidance radar. In those cases killing the central radar effectively disables the entire SAM site.
SA-13 also has radar ‘assist’ (for target range only according to TacRef), but it is a short-range IR missile platform.
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btw, i just started a new campaign after the last one ended in a draw, and i was flying slightly past seoul on a SEAD escort, and i was getting blinky red (so definitely active) SA-5 and 3, 1 of each. i don’t think i’ve ever seen this before. what does that mean?
edit: do note that at least one fired at me, but i did a small turn and chaffed and defeated it pretty easily. i think i ended up destroying at least one of them with rockeyes, the other was very far away and i didn’t want to risk flying over to destroy it, there was a huge cloud of MIGs in it’s direction.
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@Cik:
btw, i just started a new campaign after the last one ended in a draw, and i was flying slightly past seoul on a SEAD escort, and i was getting blinky red (so definitely active) SA-5 and 3, 1 of each. i don’t think i’ve ever seen this before. what does that mean?
edit: do note that at least one fired at me, but i did a small turn and chaffed and defeated it pretty easily. i think i ended up destroying at least one of them with rockeyes, the other was very far away and i didn’t want to risk flying over to destroy it, there was a huge cloud of MIGs in it’s direction.
Blinking red means that the SAM site is firing a missile, to you or to someone else. I suppose you saw the blinking red on the HAD page. If you see blinking red and you dont have a missile launch warning on your RWR means that the SAM site is firing to someone else. If you see red but not blinking, it means the SAM site is permanently tracking you or someone else. Usually the continuous red will be followed some secconds later by a blinking red :D.
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yeah, but if SA-5 and under don’t emit for sure, how’s it tracking me? wouldn’t i only see the S radar going red, because it’s the only thing that’s emitting?
i’m asking how i see it on a radar receiver at all if it doesn’t emit i guess.
if it see one blinky red can i shoot back and destroy it with HAD-targeted HARM? if it’s blinky red i should be able to kill it because it’s emitting, right?
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It should be a “5” not an “S.” Sometimes a search radar and the Barlock are located very close to each other and/or the symbols do look similar. Ss shouldn’t go red ever (S and A alternating flash might be red for AAA). You can launch on the Barlock in any of the yellow or red or red flashing states and HARM will track. RWR seems to only show 5 very close a short time before launch. In reality the SA-5 system is usually composed of several radars for different purposes, barlock acquisition, square pair engagement, height finders, early warning earth, low altitude. BMS roll these all into one object so it’s just “the SAM’s radar.” The danger of SAMs in the hands of good operators is the ability to use integrated air defense network information to silently (or rather using boring generic search radar) watch you fly into the heart of their envelope and then come online and engage as rapidly as humanly possible. Depending on the system SAMs can get a missile in the air heading your way on preplanned data and provide much delayed warning (if any).
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so to clarify, the barlock, lowblow, fan song etc, will show up as their respective numbers and NOT an S? so what are the search radars everywhere for, just for show? to give the campaign AI sight? can SAs etc tie into them at all for target acquisition? thanks for the info. you learn a lot on this forum man, A++ would read again
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Yes. I believe the S will add to the overall knowledge of the “red team” against your jet. For example I flew in deep to red territory past a MiG-23 cap that didn’t turn to engage until I popped up and got spotted by a DPRK-owned search radar. Does search radar help the speed and accuracy of a SAM engagement? I don’t know. It should especially if the latent IADS code gets online in a future version. One could do some tests popping into an SA-2 envelope from terrain masking with and without cooperative search radars knowing about you before pop up. It might be hard to physically set up the scenario.
(SA-2) ……/mountain…(F-16)…(Search Radar)