EXPANSION OF DEVELOPMENT BASE PERSONNEL THROUGH EDUCATION
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You got too late for the match, the kids have already a ball and got the team set. Sorry. But we can surely enjoy watching they playing….;)
Edit: was a reply for the atreides, not you cloud.
Thats fine if thats how they want to keep things. I can only make suggestions. From my POV my suggestion makes sense. Perhaps I am not taking into consideration factors that only they know of. For whatever reason - my offer stands. I thnk that if they focused on creating/maintaining pipelines (e.g. cockpits, terrain, 3D objects, weather etc), higher quality and a greater volume of work would get done.
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You got too late for the match, the kids have already a ball and got the team set. Sorry. But we can surely enjoy watching they playing….;)
Edit: was a reply for the atreides, not you cloud.
I know. I love your analogy!!!
It’s my ball and I’M taking it and going home!! LOL
C9
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@Cloud:
LOD Editor comes with a user manual. And Jan Has has put out and made public a LOT of info on how to use LE also, here and on his website.
Monsters TE, is an intuitive application. It’s not hard at all, you just have to play around with it and learn how it works. If you have questions, then ask them here on the Forums and you’ll most likely get the answer you need.
The problem I see is everyone want’s to be spoon feed everything…AND I mean everything. Most of us old Devs have learned ourselves with very little “being taught” or “having instructions” from anyone. We studied the tools and figured out how to use them basically on our own.
No one want’s to do this anymore. But then again that’s just a sign of the times we live in now a days, as everyone seems to feel they are entitled to be given everything they want/request!!!
C9
Not my stance cloud 9. I am willing to do work and read / learn whats needed to do that work. COORDINATION is what is missing from the picture. How helpful would it be if 70 out of 100 devs are working on the same tile? Does that sound productive? If you feel that anyone that puts in the time to figure out how the tools work and what exactly to get out of them will achieve the required results, I will take your word for it.
But the next time you find 40~50 iterations of the same “thing” in a folder, you will eventually ask yourself if this could be avoided.
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@Cloud:
LOD Editor comes with a user manual. And Jan Has has put out and made public a LOT of info on how to use LE also, here and on his website.
Monsters TE, is an intuitive application. It’s not hard at all, you just have to play around with it and learn how it works. If you have questions, then ask them here on the Forums and you’ll most likely get the answer you need.
The problem I see is everyone want’s to be spoon feed everything…AND I mean everything. Most of us old Devs have learned ourselves with very little “being taught” or “having instructions” from anyone. We studied the tools and figured out how to use them basically on our own.
No one want’s to do this anymore. But then again that’s just a sign of the times we live in now a days, as everyone seems to feel they are entitled to be given everything they want/request!!!
C9
I don’t know man, I don’t think it’s so much about giving everything to people or spoon feeding, because it would be pretty hard to still not study whatever tutorial or videos they would make and be successful. There’s got to be some modder out there with enough zeal for what he does to share that knowledge with others.
It’s just part of being a member of a community imho, the human experience, sharing with others. Now if someone is definitely taking advantage of you, then you stop, but sharing knowledge, ideas, technical know how is how we all get better as a whole and is not just giving away everything at anothers request.
I agree that the tools aren’t hard after studying them, which I have to an extent, but I’m not primarily a modder I can do simple stuff, but otherwise I leave it up to another person in my team, Flogger (Rybo) to do what I am not able to do. We all can do more by networking with others that have the skills we don’t. Another part of the human experience in this world.
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Not my stance cloud 9.
No, No, sorry Atreides, that post WAS NOT directed at you in any way!!
Sorry if you thought that.
C9
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@Cloud:
No, No, sorry Atreides, that post WAS NOT directed at you in any way!!
Sorry if you thought that.
C9
Thats ok. I am not easily offended anyway. As I said earlier, I think that keeping the dev. team “tight” or “closed” is probably a good thing as it limits anarchy. Organize us. I am only suggesting that the team sits down and has scope for even just one single thing (lets say buildings in general for the sake of an example). And once they define what would be GREAT to have concerning buildings in Falcon, to figure out what needs to be done to get them.
If you say that the tools are intuitive, I believe you. I am self taught in many ways myself. I would never fork out for CAD lessons anyway and some CAD techniques can be frustrating to say the least. Similarly, there are self taught people out there on e.g. photoshop, Paint.NET, etc. Those tools produce BMP and raster images. Whats missing from the picture is the common goal of the scope I just mentioned.
We all need to know what we are making if we are to contribute and help. Organize us.
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This post is deleted! -
@Cloud:
BAH…lol
Exactly what needs to be done?? Just updated info and/or missing info???
C9
BOOM! See that’s what I’m talking about. A “mission” if you will describing perfectly what would improve the simulator for the dev team and save their time!
Now they have time to work on Link-16! juuuuuuuust kiddin’ don’t beat me up guys
Both. Just ensure that each “entities” is present & up to date in TacRef … Remove what is wrong/outdated.
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We all need to know what we are making if we are to contribute and help. Organize us.
BMS team knows well what to do. If you want to contribute to development - read it again.
Regards
EGHI -
…I still think that what is really needed is a consolidated reference space for third party developers/contributors. As mentioned there are a a lot of them already (and many would-bes) making add-ons for BMS as it is. But unless one can (or is even willing to…) wade through the crypto-labrynth of information scattered hither and yon that supports third party development, one ends up…er…“benched”.
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…I still think that what is really needed is a consolidated reference space for third party developers/contributors.
Talking about theatres, most of the ppl in the knowledges are the 3rd party dev themselves. Ask them to create some articles/blogs : https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/blog.php
Like this:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?106-Particle-system-properties-and-DDS-files
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?140-Creating-license-plates-Part-1
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?51-Render-batch-break-how-to-model-efficiently-for-BMS
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?52-Ptypes-polycount-FPS
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?53-Painter-man!-Painter-man!
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?54-Texture-quality-weight-optimization -
Talking about theatres, most of the ppl in the knowledges are the 3rd party dev themselves. Ask them to create some articles/blogs : https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/blog.php
Like this:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?106-Particle-system-properties-and-DDS-files
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?140-Creating-license-plates-Part-1
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?51-Render-batch-break-how-to-model-efficiently-for-BMS
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?52-Ptypes-polycount-FPS
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?53-Painter-man!-Painter-man!
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/entry.php?54-Texture-quality-weight-optimizationThat’s at least a start…and a bit of the tip of what I’m suggesting. I’d like to see a single document - or series of BMS subject addressing tech documents, really - similar to the BMS -1 or -34, bundled with BMS. I know that’s work, but that’s what would actually help people…how 'bout it, 3rds?
And how about creating some tools - like a blank, generic, flatlanded theater - as a building block. Then newbies could texture and add elevation from that, and it would also help create an adherence standard of sorts for development. And something similar for aircraft? That one would be trickier, I imagine. I’d certainly settle for theater creators getting more love - I see some great ideas out there that could stand to be making more progress than they seem to be.
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If you could get theater after theater modeled to the upcoming 4.xx spec by volunteers and all you had to do was have one liaison between the BMS team and the non-BMS contributors that could teach and supervise those efforts, why would you NOT do that and save yourself tons of time and help develop the exceptionally talented to become part of the BMS team? BMS doesn’t even charge for it’s product so what does BMS stand to lose? I just don’t understand why BMS would not want interns when they are champing at the bit to bring Falcon 5 BMS to life?
Developing talent by having volunteer experts teaching courses, supervising, and evaluating output and helping out when the student gets stuck seems like a way to continually be revitalizing the team and propelling the sim to the next level and get the quality control up. The volunteer experts wouldn’t even have to be part of the BMS team, but someone that BMS is willing to work with. All they need to do is talk to each other and the solution would start to work itself towards a solution.
I’ve played around with 3D modeling, vector graphics, and coding so I am confident I could produce a decent pit with some classes and someone to help me out when I get stuck. Now maybe the pits the team produces in the 1st iteration aren’t the best, but at least you get all the pits started and if you are lucky 1/4 of them turn out be damn good and able to go out in the next update. That just seems to make sense to me, unless all of this is already getting done in a timely manner?
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Hmmm coordination I hear… Spoon-fed I hear…
The team knows exactly and a link how to contribute.All right and wrong at the same time.
Let me explain .
Coordination: for it to happen first value is cooperation. I don’t see theater devs doing so in the extent for this to work. I bark like an old dog for years for this.
Spoon-fed: heap every mod theater development reinvented how many wheels and how many times exactly? Now picture your self how productive r u when u mastered the beast and think back how much time u lost and how many times u came close to contact with the I give up target?
Team points how to: when u ask someone to do something besides what he needs the tools and instructions. Not like: here is the ocean , now learn how to swim.
Sure in all previous there are some Sparks of hope.
What I would do?
A theater devs wiki if I had the time.
Now I spent enough time let me get back I have a bug in the bridge and some cities to build… Which as a behaviour is the initial cause and hardest to fight - drag a Dev out of his accustomed - usual routine and joy of creation and productivity.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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Has everyone had their coffee yet? Good.
If you could get theater after theater modeled to the upcoming 4.xx spec …
Here is the word I have been looking for:
Most of the users do not know the limitations of the Falcon codewise, memory wise etc etc. That applies twice for making something work for a future version / iteration.
My suggestions broken down into steps would be something along the lines of:
TILE PIPELINE
1. Core team sets the specifications for the environment for the future release. How big each tile? Will textures be geo-referenced sat imaging or not? If “yes” what source will be used? We can’t have 5 different sources for this. What resolution for the textures? What color schemes for the seasons etc etc. All of this considerable work is only setting the standards for the next release.
Obviously, there are more than one ways to skin a cat. So I really do feel that brainstorming needs to take place. What would achieve better results? Is that method worth the extra effort? Will quality be prioritized above productivity? How about comparing methods and evaluating them for said requirements (quality, time to be produced etc). Could data be brought in from e.g. NASA worldwind? Are there other options to open source lanscapes? Would crews of other flight sims help (e.g. flightgear… terrain is terrain for any flight sim,… why make it twice)? Can the imported data be improved on? Can we have no two identical tiles other than on water bodies? Would modding existing work be a better or worse approach for what the specifications dictate? This is where I feel that as many as possible DIFFERENT ideas are needed. That said, the inherent limitations are the constraints and the people outside the core dev. team don’t know these. It would ultimately come down to a decision of the core dev team to explain the limitations AND THEN do the brainstorming among themselves AND the users or doing it by themselves.
2. Someone takes the time to do all of the above for JUST ONE TILE. But while doing it, he makes videos in which the average Joe that wants to contribute is educated to the process.
These are the tools we will be using.
This is how we use them
This is what we need to do and check before submitting (to reduce QC screening on the receiving end)3. The core dev. team spends its time checking, revising and hopefully helping people correct their mistakes so that productivity and quality is increased, sieving and incorporating the input into the sim. Progress is monitored in public by a color coded grid so that people working in this direction know what has and what hasn’t been done. This is crucial to prevent from overlapping work and wasted resources. Obviously the core dev team will eventually figure out which users are giving them EXACTLY what they want and that would allow them to designate them as “the go to” people in their absence freeing up yet even more time for them to live a life other than just develop the sim.
4. The whole thing is bug tested for seams, splits, overlaps etc. This could be done by the core dev. team or by yet more volunteers in a new pipeline.
The same setup with its own specifications, variations and demands can be used for buildings, billboards, powerlines, industries, switches, knobs, toggles, pits, airframes etc. Each one having its own pipeline.
The core dev team doesn’t need to spend time monitoring any stinking pipeline either. All they need to do is explain to one of us what needs to be done - from beginning to end - to get high quality tiles, buildings, whatever, allow for some resources and a dedicated corner on this server and that person will oversee the whole process. But there has to be scope to the whole thing. Not 1000 people all working on the same tile because its easy or whatever.
The main difference between a side-project working in this direction and one that the core. dev team trains, steers and monitors is size of workforce. In the side-projects you would have 1/10 or less of the people working on the project… But EVERYONE uses BMS! So you can expect a higher input and therefore levels of detail unattainable otherwise.
That would free up time for the core dev team to improve simulation specific aspects such as weapon integration, targeting/recce pods, mechanical failure simulation, etc. In the long run the core dev. team is still developing the simulator (how about seeing maintenance going on in hangers and outside of them when you start up? how about variations of ground crew walking, running or carrying things while you start-up? … an engine is being towed out to be replaced next to your hanger or your next package is getting fueled and loaded etc etc), but at the same time - after pipelines have been set-up and refined - it also takes upon it the policy decisions concerning feature integration while its army of volunteers churns out all the detail they would ever love to have… all the way down to 3D knurling on buttons / knobs / switches if they ever come down to that.
TRAIN THE MONKEYS!!! … Obviously I am an Arctic one so I wont need too much training, but I am sure there are fierce apes among us that will be kicking out some very good work once trained.
BTW, Thanks to everyone joining in on the conversation.
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The attitude that “I/we suffered so everyone else should too” is poor form and does nothing for anyone, except to maybe pump up someone’s ego that I can and you can’t…
This has got to be the most laughable sentence in this entire thread. Not only is is total rubbish, it proves my point about my statements.
I NEVER suffered by teaching myself, seeking the information needed by studying it years after years, learning a lot of it on my own. There have been a few others that helped me in the beginning but that was pretty short lived. I take pride in my accomplishments(you refer to that as ego…smh) as to what I’ve done on my own. I’ve never denied helping anyone, ever. And there are many members here who can verify that, but NO, I’m not going to sit here and give them everything they want time after time after time, when it’s readily available if they seek it. But then again, they would have to suffer to do that…LOL
Have you never heard the saying “God helps those that help themselves”. It doesn’t seem to exist any longer. The one’s that complain and whine, and you, think they are suffering if they have to learn or do anything on their own!! This is the phenomenon called “Entitlement” and its the age that most 25yr olds and under(and some older) seem to live in. Everything revolves around them.
“Mommy, they want me to do it by myself, they won’t do it for me, can you get my cell phone that you gave me when I was 3yrs old so I can call them and tell them that’s just not right. Oh, darn, it’s not charged. I could use one of the 2 other phones in the house, but one is a touch tone and that hurts my tender fingers and the other is a rotary phone and I’m scared to stick my fingers in them little holes for fear it will rip my finger off, plus I don’t even know how to dial that thing!!! Mommy, can you call them and tell them to tell me their secrets and if they don’t you’ll go over there and beat them up for me.”
With that said, there are some fine young people here that have the desire, drive and commitment to learn a lot of stuff by themselves, but they are few and far between compared to the “entitlement” crowd. And looking at your post, you seem to lean that way.
I could write a book about not only How much I’ve helped individuals and taught people and how many hours, days, months and years I’ve learned by myself, and how many times I’ve seen people whining about how no one will help them, or how THEY can’t find the information because it’s here, there, and everywhere, it’s not in a central depository, indexed and filed appropriately for them and that’s just to much pain and suffering for them to endure, this part would take more than half the book!!
Here’s my tip of the day. If you aren’t or you can’t be willing to have the ambition to learn on your own because that causes you to much pain and suffering, then, well, don’t Mod/Dev on Falcon. Get out of the “Afterburner” Period.
But of course, due to my “EGO”, oh and my “Poor form”, according to you, I’m a mean person and know the secrets and won’t give them out……LOL
It’s no wonder BMS and some other Dev teams have/run a tight closed shop. And I don’t blame them one bit for that, I actually applaud it.
Cheers,
C9
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Before this turns into a flame war - which is not the intended purpose of this thread - I wouldn’t mind reading your positions Cloud 9, on specifications, limitations and goals. Those can’t be set by the average Joe because they don’t know the technical aspect of what Falcon can handle. The same goes in some cases concerning methods to achieve the desired results.
I for one don’t want someone else to do things for me. I do however think that putting out training videos in which the example is set concerning HOW to achieve the desired results is a damn good idea. You might think its better for people to just start doing stuff in a million different ways … and then what? Try to stitch every non-uniform piece together? To produce what? The biggest collage ever used in a man-made machine?
I really would like to hear your view on centralized direction, goals etc. The difference between having that, and 1000 different opinions is the difference between direction and chaos. But that is just my opinion.
While I am at it, lets have a vote about a special Anniversary edition Falcon theater where the player takes-off and flies over an entire squad of playmates in high resolution, elevation map with REAL hills and valleys!.. Guess where the landing strips will be!
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It is not because he is not yet integrated into the team with a full access of the dev forum that wasn’t provided usefull info to some of the team members … and … one do not need to be team member to be usefull to the community. Anytime he comes on the ppl forum he provides some good info that might be good for the development.
100% …
I (we) am still waiting for someone to give love to the Tactical Reference.
Which part? As you said RWR will be removed. Rest of part is in the age of Internet is pointless. You anytimes can find more and better data about any aircraft in DB. The only good point of Tactref to check 3D model integration. If you scrweded strongly someting you get CTD in tacref without loading a mission.
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Before this turns into a flame war
That’s not my intentions Atreides. I’m simply responded to an accusation that is totally false.
At any rate. I’ll spend some time and respond to your questions later, as right now I’m a tad busy.
C9
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You anytimes can find more and better data about any aircraft in DB. The only good point of Tactref to check 3D model integration. If you scrweded strongly someting you get CTD in tacref without loading a mission.
Well sure Molni, you can find the info on the INET, but that’s not the point, it’s not like you want to be sitting in Falcon and alt tab out to check Wiki all the time.
TACREF is a Legacy and nostalgic part of Falcon which should be updated and preserved IMO.
And what do you mean by “scrweded strongly”?? Doesn’t make sense, please have Google translate it…LOL
C9