F22 Raptor Vs Euro Fighter
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rafale turns better than the raptor
I’m slightly confused by this - the English translated caption for the Video says the video is the Rafele Vs the Typhoon. Is there F-22 footage mixed in somewhere that I just missed?
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I’m slightly confused by this - the English translated caption for the Video says the video is the Rafele Vs the Typhoon. Is there F-22 footage mixed in somewhere that I just missed?
Looks like an F-22 in there to me……try 4:45… DJ posted this years back on here.
The EF features quite a bit in this vid
:rofl:
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Thanks for the link.
Well, the 22 was very expensive. Primarily due to its stealth capabilities and avionics. Again we pay for a jet that seems to underperform. The 35 has also been recently touted as being underperforming. Avionics and stealth have certain advantages, but if you get into a merge (many scenarios exist for this) both of these new jets could have serious problems.
I guess I hate it when we spend so much to get mediocre performance in return. It seems to me that LM are simply out to make a buck. A lot of bucks. Just IMO.
Hope both of these jets prove themselves at some point. Not adadvocating war here but this may be a big problem down the road.
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+1 On Migbuster.
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Once again, videos of exercise kills make absolutely no sense when taken out of context. And by context I mean the setup, the rules and limitations etc. A defensive BFM for the Raptor and the Eurofighter in those vids will have them in the sights of their opponents almost immediately after the “Fight’s on” call. Were they limited in some way e.g. afterburner usage? What about aircraft configuration and weapons allowed?
These vids are good for reasons of national pride and marketing, targeted to people that don’t know how the Air force works. There is also a T-38 video out there gunning a Raptor, should we scrap the latter aircraft from the USAF inventory and replace them with the venerable training jet?Let’s get back on topic, which is, the flight models of the Eurofighter and F-22 in the sim.
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https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/cleaning-up-red-flag-alaska-f-22-vs-typhoon-debate/
I don’t know if I would call that a “Credible” source. The comments quoted from Jane’s are in limited scope, and it only says they “Reportedly” “Bagged” 3 F-22s in 1v1 situations. 8 Sorties is not the same as 8 “merges”, it’s not uncommon to merge 3 or 4 times on a training sortie, fuel permitting. If they merged 4 times that’s a great ratio… if they merged 20 it’s not so impressive. This is, after all, just someone’s personal blog. I’m not saying the EF isn’t a capable fighter, the quote from the Col involved in the exercise clearly indicates that it is, but all the quotes in the blog and the article excerpt are a little biased as they are from the EF squadron commander, who effectively says more or less they expected to do poorly, and did better than expected.
You can find several “Opinion Blogs” to support either side of the argument:
http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/p-i-r-a-t-e-versus-raptor.html
http://theaviationist.com/2014/09/30/these-may-be-the-only-f-22s-achilles-heels-in-a-dogfight-against-4th-gen-fighter-jets/Both articles based on the same “Engagement” data from the referenced Pre-Red Flag training. Based on what I have read (That means this is my opinion…) the idea behind the EF design as far as WVR dogfights is to survive, maneuver, and win a potentially extended engagement. While the F22 is “designed” to end a WVR fight quick and avoid a lengthy WVR engagement which could expose some of the weaknesses that accompany overuse of things like thrust-vectoring. Please read that carefully, as I am NOT saying the F22 relies on its superior BVR capabilities (That’s not what this post was about), I am saying even in a dogfight the idea is to use the maneuverability advantages provided by thrust vectoring to use a shoot first and better hope you don’t miss approach, because recovering from overuse/misuse of thrust vectoring is likely to be costly in both performance and SA. It’s also worthy to note there are other advantages the F22 has in close range which aren’t discussed in any of these articles because of their sensitive nature, and likely were not taken into account during the mock-engagements.
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When I have the time I may upload my EF flight model that I made for F4, with iterations being released for many flavours such as SP4, FF2-5, OF. The latest one was never released. It’s not perfect, but should be more realistic and less over maneuvrable.
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rafale turns better than the raptor
A simple video footage means nothing about the superiority or the non superiority of a fighter jet.
However … it leads into some nice and funny reading
And about the challenge Typhoon vs the rest of the world … I only know this :
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However … it leads into some nice and funny reading
“The F-22 is clearly not in a position for a gun or a fox2 kill.” got from that link above.
This seems to be BS and biased.
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… what I prefer is the:
I saw the original full gun cam record … and it is conformal to the pic above. Additionally … IIRC, the red cross is not the TOO CLOSE warning for weapon like in our F-16 HUD but rather the RECOVER or ATTITUDE warning displayed on the SFO page.
And because I am still amazed by the Typhoon’s design, here is a nice pic of a EF2000 taken from the Rafale cockpit: http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r279/sampaix/4188952622_9de8a26779.jpg
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I’m searching my old Efa recordings against Rafale from Saint Dizier. I’m sorry but in clean configuration of both aircraft, Rafale has nothing to do. The only dogfights we lose was carrying underwing against clean Rafales.
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Hi Chicho! (I was waiting for you )
… what is the internal fuel of a Typhoon and what is the internal fuel of a Rafale? … why the Typhoon needs the external tanks? … which has the greater fuel flow? => Thrust has a price to pay
I’m searching my old Efa recordings against Rafale from Saint Dizier. I’m sorry but in clean configuration of both aircraft, Rafale has nothing to do. The only dogfights we lose was carrying underwing against clean Rafales.
Sure. The EF2000 has more powerful engines (about 3kN more), Rafale is far from being a pure dog-fighter and is a concentrate of compromises to keep its omni-role profile.
But if Rafale is able to stalemate with F-22 in BFM, if a Typhoon is able to overcome a Rafale … I see no reason a Typhoon wouldn’t be able to shoot a F-22.
All this discussion to say: when talking about fighter jets (and their human pilots) capabilities, there is no real absolute truths.
EDIT: Would be really great to see your recordings! … If you can find them … do not hesitate! For sure, it must be a nice moment.
Salud!
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So if a Gripen can take out 2 typhoons, is it twice as good as a F-22?? <-joke
http://blogg.forsvarsmakten.se/flygvapenbloggen/2014/06/06/verklighetsnara-taktikutveckling-av-jas-39-i-england-meatball-ur-en-pilots-perspektiv/
It’s in Swedish, don’t know how Google translate will handle the text but in short the exercise was 2 vs 1 where they wasn’t allowed to shoot before the merge simulating that the hadn’t seen each other before the merge a so called “pop up group WVR”. -
The only dogfights we lose
of what kind? hi aspect? with some kind of separation on to merge clean up?what?
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Hi Chicho! (I was waiting for you )
… what is the internal fuel of a Typhoon and what is the internal fuel of a Rafale? … why the Typhoon needs the external tanks? … which has the greater fuel flow? => Thrust has a price to pay
Hi Dee-Jay,
Eurofighter clean internal fuel is 5t. I think Rafale is 4,7t right?
Eurofighter fuel consumption in dry range is very low including military power, the problem is using afterburners.
I like Rafale in dogfight, especially fighting in block one altitudes. It’s a huge adversary but I insist, for comparison, we have to test all aircraft with the same configuration.
Anyway I want to congratulate your country for your aircraft. I have good friends flying Rafale. We did TLP together in Florennes.Regards.
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Eurofighter clean internal fuel is 5t. I think Rafale is 4,7t right?
I had the wrong figures … my figures said 4t for the EF! (Thank you for correction!) … Yep, 4t7 according to Wiki for the Raf.
for comparison, we have to test all aircraft with the same configuration.
Fully agree … and also have to know and take in consideration what are the “rules of he game” which are deterministic and not simply comparing a result or just videos or pictures. It is more complex that just saying one is better because it made a shot/kill => In real combat it is true … in training it is different. I guess you will agree.
Hope to meet you one day!
Cheers!
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It is more complex that just saying one is better because it made a shot/kill => In real combat it is true … in training is it different. I guess you will agree.
Completely agree.
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Looks like an F-22 in there to me……try 4:45… DJ posted this years back on here.
Nope that’s looking very much like an F-15. Wrong plan shape for F-22. Unfortunately the HUD symbology gets in the way just when it is going to show a nice view of the fins.
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Nope that’s looking very much like an F-15. Wrong plan shape for F-22. Unfortunately the HUD symbology gets in the way just when it is going to show a nice view of the fins.
Although it is not the most clear cut view, going by the way it moves and the inner angle of the horizontal stabs it has to be an F-22
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Like most other generational match-ups, the outcome of this type of engagement WVR, primarily, comes down to two major considerations:
1. The energy/angle/altitude of both fighters the moment they both make contact.
2. The individual capabilities of each pilot.
Specific performance capabilities without logged data to review/scrub, limits the discussion to classified speculation.