Maverick question
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Actually, this makes perfect sense because the cursor assignment is being moved to the new SOI and the MAV is still under pickle. So all the missile can do is go to SLAVE. DMS should do nothing to the weapon selection, and that’s the real point of why it shouldn’t drop any weapon symbology - the MAV is still powered up; only dif between the TGM and the AGM is missile present on the wing - the TGM is always there, and so the circle persists until the selection is cycled.
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As the slave condition is the predesignate condition for the weapon, its a not insignificant nuance. Changing mastermodes also takes SOI away from WPN, and has the same effect - and is mentally easier to associate than is DMS, which is very likely why it would be taught as operational practice, especially given the tie in with the TGM-65, given how aircrew will likely use that more often than the AGM-65.
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It really does not matter which missile is used. Symbology and procedures are the same.
With the TGM-65 loaded ,once the pickle button is pressed for a simulated shot (or shots) the avionics behave as if an AGM-65 was fired. You will still see weapon quantity countdown and removal of the LOS circle for the ‘launched” missile etc. The only difference is that the missile remains on the launcher, and the WPN page can be reset for subsequent shots. -
One more +1, Leech…but I’m thinking that with the TGM the reason you lose everything but might still see the circle is because you haven’t really dropped power from the missile - only sent it into another training state, and this would be the core dif between the TGM and an AGM; and I’m thing of a single missile on a single rail here - seeing as trying to find a couple dozen TGMs for training for a division of jets would be…er…cost prohibitive. There’s not really any reason to carry more than one per jet for training purposes. I’d have to know more about what the jet actually does electrically…but I can speculate. Bottom line is that I believe your statement “The AGM-65 LOS circle can only be removed if you exit the AG mode and transition to NAV, AA, MSL OVRD or DGFT. TMS dose not remove the LOS circle” to be 100% correct…and that the reason that switching master modes does remove the circle is because power is removed when the weapon is no longer under pickle. So - you can/could do one of two things with a TGM to get it back for another shot - reset it from the WPN page, or deselect/re-select the weapon to reset - which can also be done quickly by de-select/re-select of A/G master mode.
Blu3wolf - SOI and designation state truly has nothing to do with missile reset or dropping it’s symbology for either the TGM or the AGM. All the crew need know is where cursors (SOI) are assigned and that everything else slaves to cursors…that’s pretty straightforward to keep track of. If you release the missile designation you have to re-establish.
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And yet the manual says otherwise, and Im more inclined to trust it than your word.
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I think the manual is right, you’re just interpreting it wrong. It sounds to me like the behavior is correct - given some past “outside” experience.
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Well Stevie, you yourself agreed that DMS down should command a return to slaved condition, so you are agreeing with me anyway…
As that was the point which IHawk was disputing.
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What dose the manual say exactly ?
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I have quoted the revelant sections thereof in this thread quite a few times now… if it is needed I do so again, I will do so when I am at a computer and can copy-paste it.
Well here we go! The relevant posts which include sections of the manual are included below:
@Blu3wolf:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
Perhaps you have it right there I-Hawk. I dont happen to have an F-16 on my person to test it out on, though.
I spotted this which details when the Mav gets returned to the slaved condition, and that would seem to support what you are saying about the TMS down causing it to break track but otherwise stay where it is.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.So, it would be TMS down to break the track, then either DMS down or up depending on the mode (VIS or PRE). That seems like it would be quite intuitive in operation, actually.
So a TMS up with the SOI on the WPN page would command a track. A TMS down would command a return to slew mode. A DMS up (assuming VIS mode here) would command SOI to the HUD, and the Maverick would be commanded back to the SLAVE mode (which in VIS would point it back to the TD box LOS). Very intuitive.
There is some debate over that…
There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
Those posts being here:
@I-Hawk:Well… I sure hope that you:
1. Realize that it would be EXTREMELY odd for me to just pop such behavior out of my mind.The implication of course being that you did not make this up, and that you are not the firsthand source for the information. The only issue there is the flack that Dan Hampton gets over the stuff in Viper Pilot, specifically the things he says you can do in an F-16, which no manual supports.
@I-Hawk:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
See, the manual agrees that this will work. By switching master modes, you move the SOI away from the WPN page, and thus command a return to slaved condition. There is no debate about this - it will work.
@I-Hawk:I’m fairly certain that it is correct behavior, EVEN if the real manuals may suggest otherwise…
Well. As mentioned above, it is correct behavior, in that it will work. Its likely even operational practice, because switching to DGFT and back is quick and easy. That switching mastermodes is the only way to do that… the manual does not suggest otherwise, it flat out states otherwise. But it does not state that switching mastermodes will not work - because it will.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation.
Well, everyone agrees about this part also.
If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track.
This part is irrelevant to BMS, because FTT/GMTT acquire track instantly in BMS, rather than taking 5 to 10 seconds to get a stable track. So, its basically just the same as the last sentence, until/unless the GM/GMT modes get an upgrade in a future BMS version.
If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. If you, while in PRE with a mav tracking and a valid GMTT, position the DMS down, the SOI will switch to the FCR. According to the manual, the mav will return to slave at that point (or bore depending on mode). According to an unnamed source, the mav will remain in slew mode at that point, unless and until a mastermode change is commanded.
So I suppose there is some disagreement there. The manual in question may not relate to the same aircraft as the source is familiar with. The manual may be wrong. The source may be wrong. I think those three possibilities, are the only three?
Not knowing the source, I cannot know its accuracy. This is the wikipedia problem! The manual is certainly capable of mistakes, and given the wide range of F-16s and F-16 variations, its entirely possible that both the source and the manual are correct, depending on which F-16 you are discussing.
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This post is deleted! -
What dose the manual say exactly ?
Rolling in for a RofTFM, the BMS Dash 34 A/G HOTAS guide on page 18 indicates precisely the behavior I would expect - the the DMS does nothing but change the SOI; up for HUD, down for left/right MFD. In which case the missile should go to SLAVE unless it is the SOI, and dependent on which MFD is is being displayed on.
OTOH, the TMS operates the missile - as I would expect. TMS left changes AGM track modes, and TMS down undesignates and returns all sensors (including MAV) to SLAVE.
If the missile is doing something other than this, or if the TMS/DMS operations are somehow fouled…I would consider that a bug. But I’d double check my callback assignments before I did so…because the above sounds perfectly correct to me.
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TMS down returns the missile to slew in BMS, not to slave. If the BMS manual says it should return to slave, that would be a mistake.
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1. The source is not wrong. Actually it cannot be wrong…
2. Manuals may describe updated software/hardware.
3. Manuals have been known to contain errors, or may not describe a topic in detail.
As an example, what does the manual say about the AGM-65 HOC/COH polarity, and what do you think it actually dose if the “manual” is the only source of information?
The code will stay as it is. Even if someone finds a reliable source that new tape/software works in the way that is described in the manual, does not mean that the code as it is has errors for the functions in question. It is modeled after tape X/ software X and cannot be disputed. -
And the value of X is?
Also the polarity for the maverick is described well in the manual…
And given the quote above, the source is clearly not wrong - they described one way of returning the sensor to the salved position. Well, the manual agrees with them there. No dispute.
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And the value of X is?
Also the polarity for the maverick is described well in the manual…
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So it would change the polarity of hold / cold objects ?
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Upon review, it seems that the polarity changes well described are only the Sniper/Lantirn ones. I stand corrected.
Based on the (very limited) description it would appear to be heavily based on which specific AGM-65 was loaded, as to whether it would change the displayed polarity. The TGP software certainly expects the maverick to be able to do so, however.
“The info we got was in regards with the TGM-65 maverick training missile. The TGM-65 provides the same cockpit control response as the operational AGM-65 missile except it does not launch.
Cycling out of AG mode (this can be accomplished by momentarily selecting DGFT or MSL OVRD )reactivates the weapon video for reattack.
This was the information we got. Unless someone can provide additional ,reliable information ,the code will remain as it is.This cycling out of AG mode to reactivate weapon video is specific to the TGM-65, though. Its almost a direct quote from the -34. You cannot reactivate weapon video after firing an AGM-65, as it is no longer on the rail (having just been fired).
So lets look at the basics then. Correct me if Im wrong with this. We agree that the AGM-65 starts out looking at the SPI if in PRE mode, the TD box if in VIS mode, or the zero sight line if in BORE mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.we disagree on whether or not you should need to uncage to get weapon video. We agree that after video is displayed, whether you uncaged or waited, the cursor allows you to slew the seeker at a constant angular rate for a given FOV, and a TMS up allows you to track a target. We all agree that a TMS down after tracking a target rejects that target, causing a return to slew mode, but otherwise does not move the seeker. We agree that it is possible to return the seeker to its slave position (SPI for PRE, TD box for VIS, ZSL for BORE) by changing mastermodes, such as with the override mastermodes.
what we evidently still disagree on, is the final sentence here:
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
That being that, switching SOI from WPN to say the HUD or the FCR, after having rejected a target (or before selecting one), would cause the Maverick seeker LOS to return to its commanded position, being either the SPI in PRE mode, the TD box in VIS, or the ZSL in BORE. This is significant, in that switching mastermodes as described above, would cause the SOI to switch away from WPN.
Have I summed up the source of our disagreement?
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The test was done with a TGM-65. Yes it is a direct quote from the manual… so ?
Sorry we could not load a live AGM-65, but it does not matter. TGM-65 and AGM 65 procedures, avionics and symbology are the same, with the exception of the reset, and actual launch.
If there is any disagreement it all comes down to the manual vs. the real jet. We chose the real jet. This choice left us with no assumptions, but also small hidden details that are not described in the manual.
Even if the manual is 100% correct, it does not make the code wrong, for reasons I explained, so this discussion should end here.
On the note of HOC/COH polarity, the manual dose let one to assume that the toggle of COH/HOC will change the polarity of the objects on the display. I can tell you that it is far from the case. -
So, the direct quote is discussing something impossible on an AGM-65, which is reactivating weapon video after an attack. The quote itself is part of a note which is specific to the TGM.
Have I summed up the points of contention, or is there another area we disagree on?
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B3, the manual doesn’t tell hell of a LOT of other stuff that’s going on in the cockpit, a HUGE example is the behavior of the system regarding SPI and SP. I can tell you that there are MANY small details which the manual doesn’t bother to mention in best cases and/or simply WRONG in the worse.
Bottom line: Behavior will NOT change just because the manual says so.
I also must say that I actually find it weird that the Maverick will return to slave mode just because SOI was removed from WPN page… not so intuitive to me, at least I can’t think of another system that behaves this way.
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I really appreciate your offer, I-Hawk! Id love to take you up on that, particularly these small details which are wrong.