Maverick question
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I have quoted the revelant sections thereof in this thread quite a few times now… if it is needed I do so again, I will do so when I am at a computer and can copy-paste it.
Well here we go! The relevant posts which include sections of the manual are included below:
@Blu3wolf:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
Perhaps you have it right there I-Hawk. I dont happen to have an F-16 on my person to test it out on, though.
I spotted this which details when the Mav gets returned to the slaved condition, and that would seem to support what you are saying about the TMS down causing it to break track but otherwise stay where it is.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.So, it would be TMS down to break the track, then either DMS down or up depending on the mode (VIS or PRE). That seems like it would be quite intuitive in operation, actually.
So a TMS up with the SOI on the WPN page would command a track. A TMS down would command a return to slew mode. A DMS up (assuming VIS mode here) would command SOI to the HUD, and the Maverick would be commanded back to the SLAVE mode (which in VIS would point it back to the TD box LOS). Very intuitive.
There is some debate over that…
There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
Those posts being here:
@I-Hawk:Well… I sure hope that you:
1. Realize that it would be EXTREMELY odd for me to just pop such behavior out of my mind.The implication of course being that you did not make this up, and that you are not the firsthand source for the information. The only issue there is the flack that Dan Hampton gets over the stuff in Viper Pilot, specifically the things he says you can do in an F-16, which no manual supports.
@I-Hawk:Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to “Reset” it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
See, the manual agrees that this will work. By switching master modes, you move the SOI away from the WPN page, and thus command a return to slaved condition. There is no debate about this - it will work.
@I-Hawk:I’m fairly certain that it is correct behavior, EVEN if the real manuals may suggest otherwise…
Well. As mentioned above, it is correct behavior, in that it will work. Its likely even operational practice, because switching to DGFT and back is quick and easy. That switching mastermodes is the only way to do that… the manual does not suggest otherwise, it flat out states otherwise. But it does not state that switching mastermodes will not work - because it will.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation.
Well, everyone agrees about this part also.
If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track.
This part is irrelevant to BMS, because FTT/GMTT acquire track instantly in BMS, rather than taking 5 to 10 seconds to get a stable track. So, its basically just the same as the last sentence, until/unless the GM/GMT modes get an upgrade in a future BMS version.
If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. If you, while in PRE with a mav tracking and a valid GMTT, position the DMS down, the SOI will switch to the FCR. According to the manual, the mav will return to slave at that point (or bore depending on mode). According to an unnamed source, the mav will remain in slew mode at that point, unless and until a mastermode change is commanded.
So I suppose there is some disagreement there. The manual in question may not relate to the same aircraft as the source is familiar with. The manual may be wrong. The source may be wrong. I think those three possibilities, are the only three?
Not knowing the source, I cannot know its accuracy. This is the wikipedia problem! The manual is certainly capable of mistakes, and given the wide range of F-16s and F-16 variations, its entirely possible that both the source and the manual are correct, depending on which F-16 you are discussing.
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This post is deleted! -
What dose the manual say exactly ?
Rolling in for a RofTFM, the BMS Dash 34 A/G HOTAS guide on page 18 indicates precisely the behavior I would expect - the the DMS does nothing but change the SOI; up for HUD, down for left/right MFD. In which case the missile should go to SLAVE unless it is the SOI, and dependent on which MFD is is being displayed on.
OTOH, the TMS operates the missile - as I would expect. TMS left changes AGM track modes, and TMS down undesignates and returns all sensors (including MAV) to SLAVE.
If the missile is doing something other than this, or if the TMS/DMS operations are somehow fouled…I would consider that a bug. But I’d double check my callback assignments before I did so…because the above sounds perfectly correct to me.
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TMS down returns the missile to slew in BMS, not to slave. If the BMS manual says it should return to slave, that would be a mistake.
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1. The source is not wrong. Actually it cannot be wrong…
2. Manuals may describe updated software/hardware.
3. Manuals have been known to contain errors, or may not describe a topic in detail.
As an example, what does the manual say about the AGM-65 HOC/COH polarity, and what do you think it actually dose if the “manual” is the only source of information?
The code will stay as it is. Even if someone finds a reliable source that new tape/software works in the way that is described in the manual, does not mean that the code as it is has errors for the functions in question. It is modeled after tape X/ software X and cannot be disputed. -
And the value of X is?
Also the polarity for the maverick is described well in the manual…
And given the quote above, the source is clearly not wrong - they described one way of returning the sensor to the salved position. Well, the manual agrees with them there. No dispute.
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And the value of X is?
Also the polarity for the maverick is described well in the manual…
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So it would change the polarity of hold / cold objects ?
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Upon review, it seems that the polarity changes well described are only the Sniper/Lantirn ones. I stand corrected.
Based on the (very limited) description it would appear to be heavily based on which specific AGM-65 was loaded, as to whether it would change the displayed polarity. The TGP software certainly expects the maverick to be able to do so, however.
“The info we got was in regards with the TGM-65 maverick training missile. The TGM-65 provides the same cockpit control response as the operational AGM-65 missile except it does not launch.
Cycling out of AG mode (this can be accomplished by momentarily selecting DGFT or MSL OVRD )reactivates the weapon video for reattack.
This was the information we got. Unless someone can provide additional ,reliable information ,the code will remain as it is.This cycling out of AG mode to reactivate weapon video is specific to the TGM-65, though. Its almost a direct quote from the -34. You cannot reactivate weapon video after firing an AGM-65, as it is no longer on the rail (having just been fired).
So lets look at the basics then. Correct me if Im wrong with this. We agree that the AGM-65 starts out looking at the SPI if in PRE mode, the TD box if in VIS mode, or the zero sight line if in BORE mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.we disagree on whether or not you should need to uncage to get weapon video. We agree that after video is displayed, whether you uncaged or waited, the cursor allows you to slew the seeker at a constant angular rate for a given FOV, and a TMS up allows you to track a target. We all agree that a TMS down after tracking a target rejects that target, causing a return to slew mode, but otherwise does not move the seeker. We agree that it is possible to return the seeker to its slave position (SPI for PRE, TD box for VIS, ZSL for BORE) by changing mastermodes, such as with the override mastermodes.
what we evidently still disagree on, is the final sentence here:
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
That being that, switching SOI from WPN to say the HUD or the FCR, after having rejected a target (or before selecting one), would cause the Maverick seeker LOS to return to its commanded position, being either the SPI in PRE mode, the TD box in VIS, or the ZSL in BORE. This is significant, in that switching mastermodes as described above, would cause the SOI to switch away from WPN.
Have I summed up the source of our disagreement?
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The test was done with a TGM-65. Yes it is a direct quote from the manual… so ?
Sorry we could not load a live AGM-65, but it does not matter. TGM-65 and AGM 65 procedures, avionics and symbology are the same, with the exception of the reset, and actual launch.
If there is any disagreement it all comes down to the manual vs. the real jet. We chose the real jet. This choice left us with no assumptions, but also small hidden details that are not described in the manual.
Even if the manual is 100% correct, it does not make the code wrong, for reasons I explained, so this discussion should end here.
On the note of HOC/COH polarity, the manual dose let one to assume that the toggle of COH/HOC will change the polarity of the objects on the display. I can tell you that it is far from the case. -
So, the direct quote is discussing something impossible on an AGM-65, which is reactivating weapon video after an attack. The quote itself is part of a note which is specific to the TGM.
Have I summed up the points of contention, or is there another area we disagree on?
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B3, the manual doesn’t tell hell of a LOT of other stuff that’s going on in the cockpit, a HUGE example is the behavior of the system regarding SPI and SP. I can tell you that there are MANY small details which the manual doesn’t bother to mention in best cases and/or simply WRONG in the worse.
Bottom line: Behavior will NOT change just because the manual says so.
I also must say that I actually find it weird that the Maverick will return to slave mode just because SOI was removed from WPN page… not so intuitive to me, at least I can’t think of another system that behaves this way.
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I really appreciate your offer, I-Hawk! Id love to take you up on that, particularly these small details which are wrong.
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I really appreciate your offer, I-Hawk! Id love to take you up on that, particularly these small details which are wrong.
OK, don’t know if I have “wrong” currently, but things which aren’t clear? bear with me please:
Where it is defined in the manual which sensor controlling the SPI for any given state of the sensors?
Where it is defined how the SOI sensor behaves while the the other sensor is in track mode regarding SPI? (e.g what happens if TGP is in AREA mode and you move SOI to FCR and start slewing, where the SPI is?)
Where it is defined that in CCRP (and other PP modes) you can move SOI to the HUD, slew the TD-Box and the SPI will slew with the TD-Box (i.e TGP/FCR will follow the HUD slews)?
Where it is defined that the behavior of Maverick polarity is like so, that the actual polarity never changes and only the symbology? (And IIRC BMS behavior is NOT correct here, because in RL it’s always WOB but the symbology color changes in order to notify which objects the missile will track - black or white, in BMS I decided to left it as is because it’s more similar to the RL behavior - i.e objects of same color of cursor will be tracked)
Where are defined all the small details between FCR/TGP sync in SP (snowplow) mode?
And there are probably many more which I don’t remember right now…
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Those are quite interesting! I may take a look into some of those, though I doubt Id be able to shed any light on them if you haven’t been able to.
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In the A-10C the video doesn’t change on contrast selection but instead the overlaid symbology and character of the splotch that can be tracked. If the lines are black you’re looking to track a black splotch and if the lines are white you’re looking to track a white splotch. The video itself doesn’t change. However just because the A-10 does it this way I cannot say the F-16 does it this way. It would be easy to invert the video (or not) and always track white splotches. The end result would be the same.
M1 tape doc calls it “tracking polarity” which suggests a change of what color splotch is tracked which is a vote for A-10C style video unaltered method. MLU M2 tape reinforces the concept of TGP having BHOT/WHOT/TV but also having WT/BT/NT for being able to track white, black, or any objects. Interestingly MLU M2 says that Maverick video is changed to be toggled with uncage and no longer automatically occurring after timeout. In the next paragraph it describes EO-VIS as taking two TMS forwards to switch SOI to Maverick (once to ground the TD box and again to shift to WPN SOI). MLU M3 EO-HMCS employment is also this way.
WOB/BOW (and possible automatic although it takes longer to begin track) is for AGM-65A/B. HOC/COH is fro AGM-65D/G.
I note that the EO bore cross is not central but biased to the side the missile is on. Also apparently it flashes when the pointing cross flashes.
I have never seen a Maverick video inversion in any video or picture in an F-16. In the same breath I have never seen the symbols be anything other than their standard green or white color. It could be that tracking contrast option isn’t reflected in the cross symbols or video inversion and is just a label.
It is worth note that the TGP handoff instructions don’t mention selecting a contrast option with TMS left. The MBC seems to have no trouble correlating the MAV and TGP video even if one is inverse to the other. In any case the automatic procedure doesn’t require thought as to contrast option from the pilot.
After everything I’ve read (one more supporting note from Vipers in the Storm) I’m confident enough to say that white is always hot and black is always cold on the Mav. video. The contrast option is just to tell the missile what kind of splotch should be tracked.
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The ability to back up the “pre/post designate” chain in the various EO modes I don’t have good info or even a feeling about. However I feel the restricted nature of SOI during the EO modes can’t be right.
In EO-PRE if I am moving around FCR or TGP cursors (SPI) and decide, screw this I just want to slew the Maverick now. I press DMS down to WPN SOI and just slew. It’s not locked preventing WPN SOI slewing at any time like it is in 433.
In EO-VIS I slew the TD box around and never press TMS forward to ground the box. I decide this is close enough. DMS down, WPN SOI, slew the Maverick. No need to follow the chain and auto SOI switch upon designate. If you want to change SOI you are free to do so and slew Maverick at any time (or FCR or TGP).
In EO-BORE the WPN format initializes as SOI. You fly the bore cross near the target and just start slewing. You don’t need to press TMS at to freely slew.
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The TGP is supposed to set the mav contrast selection to match the track type from the TGP (WT/BT), IIRC. The note about the MLU M2 differences does reinforce the point about things being different per F-16. Personally Id prefer it if we had entirely CCIP avionics, or if MLU blocks had MLU avionics and CCIP blocks CCIP avionics. The Configurator is a step in that direction, so I approve greatly of that.
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Yeah, I’m sure that would be an obvious bit of automation. Whatever tracking option the TGP had surely should be enforced on the Maverick.
Naturally MLU 123 are not identical to USAF OFP whatever. I am trying to draw a straight line from known territory to unknown, getting insight into the design thinking.
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The TGP is supposed to set the mav contrast selection to match the track type from the TGP (WT/BT), IIRC. .
Correct. This function is known. So are some other details mentioned.
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I also must say that I actually find it weird that the Maverick will return to slave mode just because SOI was removed from WPN page… not so intuitive to me, at least I can’t think of another system that behaves this way.
LANTIRN essentially does. Taking SOI away is not the trigger, but making any slews does(as per 1.32.1.10.5 A-G Mode.).
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After everything I’ve read (one more supporting note from Vipers in the Storm) I’m confident enough to say that white is always hot and black is always cold on the Mav. video. The contrast option is just to tell the missile what kind of splotch should be tracked.
Yes this is how it’s working in RL. Not yet in BMS because of code/feature limitations - Specifically there is no “temperature” management for objects so they will be displayed all white or all black depending on the display’s polarity, once we will implement temperature management for objects, it will be possible to implement such behavior of the Maverick head. Until that point, what we have now is I guess the best compromise because the Maverick does track objects of the cursor’s color…
The ability to back up the “pre/post designate” chain in the various EO modes I don’t have good info or even a feeling about. However I feel the restricted nature of SOI during the EO modes can’t be right.
What do you mean by “the restricted nature of SOI”? do you mean the fact that once a Maverick is ground stabilized you cannot put it to slave again without changing Master mode? if yes then this is according to the latest info we have from a very reliable source, and we believe that to be the most correct behavior, no matter what the docs say.
In EO-PRE if I am moving around FCR or TGP cursors (SPI) and decide, screw this I just want to slew the Maverick now. I press DMS down to WPN SOI and just slew. It’s not locked preventing WPN SOI slewing at any time like it is in 433.
Something here doesn’t makes sense to me, what exactly in 4.33 is “locked preventing” you?? is there some lack of knowledge here maybe?? are you aware to the fact that at any time in PRE mode you can just do that exactly, i.e move SOI to WPN and just slew the Maverick? the only limitation you do have is that once the Maverick was ground stabilized you must cycle MM in order to reset the Missiles back to slave mode (currently you can do that only with DGFT/MM-ORD, but later with any MM switch).
In EO-VIS I slew the TD box around and never press TMS forward to ground the box. I decide this is close enough. DMS down, WPN SOI, slew the Maverick. No need to follow the chain and auto SOI switch upon designate. If you want to change SOI you are free to do so and slew Maverick at any time (or FCR or TGP).
Yes, I need to check VIS mode deeply, apparently there are some details which are not so accurate (e.g in RL TGP Handoff is also possible in VIS mode).
In EO-BORE the WPN format initializes as SOI. You fly the bore cross near the target and just start slewing. You don’t need to press TMS at to freely slew.
Yes I confirm that we already checked and this should be fixed indeed.