"Read The Manual" replies
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Maybe a bit recursive, but here goe my very modest 2 cents:
A dedicated forum in which:- Basic questions would be asked AND moved to if asked in the general forum.
- This is the place where the newcommer would be invited to ask, knowing beforehand that the question is very basic but hard for them to find among the tons of documentation as it seems to feel the first days.
- This is the place where people willing to answer would go with the assumption that the questions will be basic. Still applicable the idea to refer to the manuals, etc. But at least no one would be bothered in the general forums by questions answered over and over, not subject to ‘RTFM’ answer.
I dropped my first Paveway yesterday after quite a few days of messing around, reading, watching tutorials etc. I am not specially afraid to ask, but I felt like I didn’t want to bother anyone because I know the answer is somewhere in the manuals. Is there really anything not in the manuals? But hey, info becomes clear only overtime. The first days are a bit hard…
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Good discussion. Seems to me the real point of this topic is how to address the predictable questions of newcomers (where is the nosewheel button?) in an efficient and welcoming way. To foster community growth the last thing we should be doing is discouraging newcomers with abrupt and cold RTFM replies. Perhaps establish a BMS forum topic specifically for Noobies, like Rookie Ready Room or Rookies Start Here, where newcomers can be nurtured and their monotonous questions addressed by those with the patience to do so. This topic could replace Just Saying Hello. I certainly agree that the BMS manuals are wonderful references with 98% of the information needed to become a successful BMS sim pilot and that duplication of information sources can be counter-productive. The Rookie Ready Room could have an FAQ for those Nosewheel type questions and noobies could be gently guided towards studying the manuals and learning this daunting sim.
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serolrom is on the point.
A new comer comes with super extra enthusiasm but bottom expertise or knowledge.
No one is reading the thousand pages first to go fly and test the miracle. But he can’t perform basic stuff, sooooo let’s ask while I’m with hands on the stick, and the engine is burning fuel…
So comes the q’s on basic staff… doing a quick search on the manuals he can’t even know where and how.
So the easy way, the forum.
For me it’s ok and the normal thing to do. Many times I also do it. I get bored to loose xx minutes or hours searching where I saw that. many times I get 5+ pages of results… Yea right… So ask again. One of the reasons I created the hotlist.
so if the manual was integrated to the forum search engine and it was easy to discriminate results from manual and forum, in the passing of time newcomers will see the power of the manuals and where is what.
Also easy basic stuff will be in results of those searches, resulting to reduced meaningless posts. -
My cents worth. I was one of those recently who asked a pretty basic question about installation (not about systems or flight or weapons…it was really basic) and got a slightly snippy reply to “read the manual”. I think if I read between the lines it was suggested I was being lazy by asking and not trawling the manuals. I asked because I was just a little overwhelmed and to be honest, I had missed the relevant documentation. I was a little put off at first but I did take the guy’s point about reading the manuals. Which I ordered and have subsequently spent hours reading. So while I personally think it is always preferable to be patient with newbie questions, however basic, and answer them, I also acknowledge the effort gone into the documentation (which is amazing to be honest) and the frustration the old hands might have on this issue. I want to reinforce the point that the manuals are fantastic and it is true that the best way I think to do the ground school bit of getting into the sim is just to wade in and start reading. As the guy said to me, you will learn so much more by going through them looking for answers than simply asking. Fair point.
Apoll
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the problem with a newbee forum would be who are going to answer these newbees questions?
other newbees? old heads dedicated to that, or just ppl who think they know and might spread wrong or confusing information
the forums are full of plain wrong information and that is also a reason why ppl are confused. Some old training vids are still referred to, said by some that they are still valid while they aren’t because of that tiny detail that changed and screw the whole thing. Some even today STILL refer the Falcon 4.0 and AF manual, which is plain stupid and will confuse ppl a lot.on the other hand, when you dedicate time to learn it the right way, you will learn lots of other things at the same time. things you might not be able to digest right away, but it will trigger your interest and once you mastered what you came looking for in the first place, you may come back for that new little things you overflew, looking for more in depth detail
I dropped my first Paveway yesterday after quite a few days of messing around, reading, watching tutorials etc. I am not specially afraid to ask, but I felt like I didn’t want to bother anyone because I know the answer is somewhere in the manuals. Is there really anything not in the manuals? But hey, info becomes clear only overtime. The first days are a bit hard…
I guess you will never forget how to do it from now on. If somebody just told you, then you would forget within a week
that’s the interest of doing it straight with the hard way and go look for it yourself rather than relying on somebody else to simplify it for you.learning curve is steep, we all know that and newbees have to get on with that as soon as possible.
IMHO the problem is mostly the way the manuals are used. PPL wants to run before they can walk. ppl wants to be efficient in BVR or in combat tactics before they even can land the jet properly
the flying must be learned first, then the aircraft systems, then only combat. don’t expect this to come within a month. you’re looking at 4-5 years of training before getting there.
The manuals are laid out to give you all the tools to teach you to fly first , use the systems and then fight. Look at the sequence of the training missions, we didn’t start with LGB …
But of course if you want to fight first, then you’ll be overwhelmed, no forum will help you on that fact.It’s all the same question all over again, what you’re asking is actually what one would have if he joined a good VFW.
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@Red:
the problem with a newbee forum would be who are going to answer these newbees questions?
other newbees? old heads dedicated to that, or just ppl who think they know and might spread wrong or confusing information
the forums are full of plain wrong information and that is also a reason why ppl are confused. Some old training vids are still referred to, said by some that they are still valid while they aren’t because of that tiny detail that changed and screw the whole thing. Some even today STILL refer the Falcon 4.0 and AF manual, which is plain stupid and will confuse ppl a lot.on the other hand, when you dedicate time to learn it the right way, you will learn lots of other things at the same time. things you might not be able to digest right away, but it will trigger your interest and once you mastered what you came looking for in the first place, you may come back for that new little things you overflew, looking for more in depth detail
I guess you will never forget how to do it from now on. If somebody just told you, then you would forget within a week
that’s the interest of doing it straight with the hard way and go look for it yourself rather than relying on somebody else to simplify it for you.learning curve is steep, we all know that and newbees have to get on with that as soon as possible.
IMHO the problem is mostly the way the manuals are used. PPL wants to run before they can walk. ppl wants to be efficient in BVR or in combat tactics before they even can land the jet properly
the flying must be learned first, then the aircraft systems, then only combat. don’t expect this to come within a month. you’re looking at 4-5 years of training before getting there.
The manuals are laid out to give you all the tools to teach you to fly first , use the systems and then fight. Look at the sequence of the training missions, we didn’t start with LGB …
But of course if you want to fight first, then you’ll be overwhelmed, no forum will help you on that fact.It’s all the same question all over again, what you’re asking is actually what one would have if he joined a good VFW.
I simply fully agree with Red Dog.
This “video game” can’t be learned in two days. You can try to find the short-cuts you want (You Tube channel with video tutorial, virtual instructors, RL instructors, Power Point presentations … etc …) , except a RAM graft directly into the brain, IMO, you won’t find it.
And if by change you find, contact the Air Force, they will probably be interested in your method to teach their fighter pilots in one week instead of several years. -
RedDog many if’s in your post.
Ppl doesn’t know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
they don’t know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
they don’t know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
they don’t have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
Others don’t have the language knowledge.
Others struggle with abbreviations.
Others with procedure… as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for it… wait for it… now!All those are covered by the forum… and they don’t mean that the manuals are not there nor that the manuals are not effective if used.
To pass from total beginner to starting to get the idea to be operational and to be top notch needs too much time and reading. In the mean time you start forgetting some. So forum again.
By just telling ppl rtfm ain’t always the correct, like he gets disappointed.
In real life I don’t think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainers…
So all those besides manual is the forum, and since we all are not pro fighter pilots, it raises the forum factor and minimizes the manual factor.
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In real life I don’t think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainers….
This is where you are totally wrong. (at least in the FAF)
When a student pilot comes to his instructor and ask a question, first thing that instructor say is: “What is written in your manuals?”
When I was student, the deal was:
Day one: your receive the checklists & flight manuals, SOP procedures and tech manuals.
Day three, two, four, five: course on aircraft systems: Hydaulic, Elec, Fuel system, …
One week after: First simulator where you are noted on you prefect knowledge of the cockpit (the bag test where you have to point each instruments with the finger with a bag on the head) standard checklists and emergency checklist (by heart)
The day after: Test on ground: Evaluation on SOPs (by heart) and technical exam on a/c system (minimal note accepted is 15/20).
… Three other simulator sessions.
First flight: One week after.…
IRL, pilots are trained from the beginning to search AND FIND the information in their documentations and if not in their documentation, try to find in which other documentation they can find the info.
Instructor’s explanation are limited to tips and flight techniques advices (how to improve their efficiency) … but basically, when a student climb into his cockpit, he already know from A to Z what he has to do, how to do and when to do it (this is more or less checked at flight brief before the flight, and if the young pilot is not knowing all what he has to know, there is no flight at all, he take his “red card” and flight is cancels … this three times, and he is no more student pilot).
Once in flight, what is evaluated, is his aptitudes to progress, and of course, flight instructor help him by giving him tips and advices.But do not think it is the instructor who teach the student. This is not how it works.
So, your example on RL pilot wasn’t a good one Arty.
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Ppl doesn’t know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
Sticky in the Releases and Updates forum is fairly obvious, don’t you think? https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?23315-BMS-4-33-1-Documentation
they don’t know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
Sticky in General Discussion is a good place to start, n’est-ce-pas? https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?18057-List-of-Virtual-Fighter-Wings-and-Squadrons
they don’t know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
Understandable and inevitable; it is a steep learning curve and not for the faint-hearted I agree.
they don’t have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
Those seeking instant gratification need not apply.
Others don’t have the language knowledge.
The forum also has English as its language, so no different. Virtual Fighter Wings (VFWs) are the way to go for those struggling with the manuals (until someone translates them into your language).
Others struggle with abbreviations.
That’s what Search is useful for. There should be at least one example in each document where the abbreviation sits next to the word(s) it is meant to represent (let us know in the Documentation forum if we’ve missed any).
Others with procedure… as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for it… wait for it… now!
Videos can help here certainly, but VFWs are better I agree.
By just telling ppl rtfm ain’t always the correct, like he gets disappointed.
I hope we can all agree that telling people to RTFM is not acceptable; pointing them to the relevant Manual, Chapter and Page is what we should be aspiring to do.
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RedDog many if’s in your post.
Actually no.
Ppl doesn’t know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
wrong, And they are referenced in this very forum. A further argument to the bad use of the forum. it’s there for anyone who can search for it.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?23315-BMS-4-33-Documentationthey don’t know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
Wrong, again, the info is clearly available here, maintained by you
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?18057-List-of-Virtual-Fighter-Wings-and-Squadrons&highlight=VFWthey don’t know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
that’s BS. fortune favour the audacious. If you want something, you need to be ready to do what it takes.
If you’re scared because you feel you don’t have what it takes, then you miss the point of the purpose of the VFW (or you didn’t pick a good one)they don’t have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
then don’t play Falcon and revert to warthunder BMS is a study sim. Study can’t be explained better in this case
Others don’t have the language knowledge.
Manuals are translated in multiple language. if one wants to do aviation stuff he should at least be ready to learn English
No argument or an argument only valid for the weak.
Look at Metalhead story. I’m like him. My first motivation to learn English was the flight sim manuals I was interested when I was 15…. almost 30 years ago.Others struggle with abbreviations.
you can’t be ion military stuff if you’re not ready to learn abbreviation
Others with procedure… as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for it… wait for it… now!
procedure is part of the military and even the civilian aviation. Again, it’s not a game, it’s a study sim. It has nothing to do with the debated subject
In real life I don’t think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainers….
Lol I was expecting this one, but you’re wrong they are given the manuals and then they have tests on them and if they don’t past these tests, they are fired or put back driving trucks for the duration of their contract. and that’s even before getting anywhere close to a real aircraft !!
They have no forum support, only squadron support and they certainly have to work hard to get what they want.
Maybe we should organise written tests on the manuals before giving forum access to ppl here Dj, what do you saySo all those besides manual is the forum, and since we all are not pro fighter pilots, it raises the forum factor and minimizes the manual factor.
imho, that’s wrong. the manuals should be used by VFW to train their guys properly and link the theory to the practical things
The forum is just a place where one looses his time. Time that should be better spent flying -
One week after: First simulator where you are noted on you prefect knowledge of the cockpit (the bag test where you have to point each instruments with the finger with a bag on the head) standard checklists and emergency checklist (by heart)
one “good” example
… even without speaking french, you will understand at 4:20 that things at not going very well.
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Falcon BMS is an entertainment medium, not military flight training! “Those seeking instant gratification need not apply?” A bit elitist, don’t you think? I picture someone who happens to stumble onto BMS and decides to check it out. They may have no HOTAS and no flight sim experience. Do we expect that they will spend 10 hours reading manuals before they jump in the jet for the first time to try to fly? Not likely IMO, but they will very quickly realize there is a lot to learn before they can enjoy the BMS experience. Some will decide the effort is not worth pursuing, but those who decide to accept the challenge could be encouraged by a quick and easy resource of BASIC information. Maybe a Rookie FAQ sticky would serve a worthwhile purpose. These are exactly the nuggets who ask the NWS questions and they should be steered towards the manuals and training missions.
“who are going to answer these newbees questions?” Anyone who thinks they can help. Occasional bad advice can not be prevented, but I have noticed that bad advice is normally quickly identified and corrected by others.
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@Red:
Look at Metalhead story. I’m like him. My first motivation to learn English was the flight sim manuals I was interested when I was 15…. almost 30 years ago.
Same here back in 1997 with the F-14 Fleet Defender manual.
Maybe we should organise written tests on the manuals before giving forum access to ppl here Dj, what do you say
oh … I’m getting ill. I think I’m gonna vomit … :mrgreen:
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Well… elitist or not, that’s kinda true. You wont become Tom Cruise in your first 10 mins of flying BMS.
My personnal gratification in this sim was to learn each system one after the next, and gradually become proficient. I did it hand’s on, on the F4 training missions, with the f** manual, and I was 10 at the time :D. And some time after, I took it up with AF, flew some campaign missions, learned other systems. And did the same with 4.32. Excellent example : in an AF mission, I got hit and lost my HSD, so I paused the sim, got into the manual to gather how the HSI worked to get my ass back to base
People can do exactly the same in 4.33 with the training missions
Oh, and BTW… not so long ago I did the exact same with DCS BlackShark. I didnt expect to blow stuff up right away, i took the time to do the training mission and complement them with the damn manual And never did I scroll on a forum to look for a FAQ, just looked up the manuals and did the training missions.
A rookie FAQ would not be a bad idea. But the main point of this FAQ would still be to direct to the manuals anyway Some tips to apprehend the number of controls (stuff like “learn HOTAS controls and put them in prio on your stick”, “learn a system at a time”, tips for hardware config, etc.). And anyway, anybody here can do said FAQ - and that’s probably the best option anyway, to have it done by an outsider ad not people that have been on Falcon for several years.
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Falcon BMS is an entertainment medium, not military flight training! “Those seeking instant gratification need not apply?” A bit elitist, don’t you think?
BMS is a study Sim, made by a group of ppl dedicated to realism in a combat flight simulation. It’s graciously given to the public by these guys. Where did you read it’s an Entertainment medium ?
It’s not a military flight training I agree, yet the sim in itself is actually way closer to what some military use as flight sims (and I did compare)
The tactical things are best learned from the VFW.These seeking instant gratification can apply, but will be deceived.
It’s not an elitist statement, it’s a realist quote.That’s one of the reason many VFW struggles with good potential candidate nowadays - there are not many willing to devote the time necessary to learn this thing correctly.
And that’s not a manual issue, it’s a trend in a fast moving world. But quality needs time to mature. -
Falcon BMS is an entertainment medium, not military flight training!
… which need almost the same effort to master than real flight trainer, … oh … I can say it: almost the same effort than a real jet fighter.
Maybe this explain why it is not easy to learn and why it takes time … (?)
A bit elitist, don’t you think?
… and maybe why it sound so “elitist” (?)
Maybe a Rookie FAQ sticky would serve a worthwhile purpose. These are exactly the nuggets who ask the NWS questions and they should be steered towards the manuals and training missions.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/content.php?131
… you know what ? … If they don’t have time to search in or read the “flight” manual, they wont read FAQ either.
And anyway, anybody here can do said FAQ - and that’s probably the best option anyway, to have it done by an outsider ad not people that have been on Falcon for several years.
100% …
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@Red:
It’s not a military flight training I agree, yet the sim in itself is actually way closer to what some military use as flight sims (and I did compare)
THIS is VERY true! (except Z time system.)
No NO NOOOOOO! Don’t hit me please.
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I believe that if people wish to answer posts to be helpful in actually answering the question, even those containing what they believe are incredibly simple ones, then good for them. However if they only wish to ridicule or post a non answer, why bother, it accomplishes nothing. Frankly I find that the silence in no answers posted at all to a “newbie” simple question probably is a better way to go because it will make one dig deeper to answer.
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I believe that if people wish to answer posts to be helpful in actually answering the question, even those containing what they believe are incredibly simple ones, then good for them. However if they only wish to ridicule or post a non answer, why bother, it accomplishes nothing. Frankly I find that the silence in no answers posted at all to a “newbie” simple question probably is a better way to go because it will make one dig deeper to answer.
This is why we answer with a reference to the exact paragraph on the manuals, and not just RTFM
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@Red:
IMHO the problem is mostly the way the manuals are used. PPL wants to run before they can walk. ppl wants to be efficient in BVR or in combat tactics before they even can land the jet properly
the flying must be learned first, then the aircraft systems, then only combat. don’t expect this to come within a month. you’re looking at 4-5 years of training before getting there.I couldn’t agree with this statement more and even more so after running the 8th for nearly a year now. A lot of folks want the knowledge and training, but they’re unwilling to put in the work to get there, this is an absolute fact and has been on of my biggest challenges as a wing commander is impressing upon newer pilots the fact that this is going to require study.
Know how I got very good at this? Hard work and study every single day, yet I still have much to learn even at this point (3.5 years flying Falcon). Without fail for nearly a year I studied documentation including all of BMS, the BEM, the MCH, AFIs, flight manuals, and many other documents. Then spent time applying what I read in the simulator. Overall I spent a minimum of 1 hour of study per day and I now know for the most part all contracts, roles, and responsibilities of a flight lead and wingman within the element, flight and package point of view.
I understand the tactical advantage of operating as a single unit within an element, having set roles and responsibilities for each member in the flight, not to mention weapon employment and tactics. This took a tremendous amount of effort and time, but paid huge dividends in the long run, yet still much to learn, that’s the other side to this business as soon as you start thinking you know everything is when you don’t. This is the key, no more no less is the only way. Those who put in the work will get what they’re looking for otherwise it’ll be the same excuses, lack of understanding of why things happen the way they do in a flight. Now using the term “work” relates to the time and effort, it’s not really work now is it when it’s a labor of love