"Read The Manual" replies
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tO BE FAIR TO NEWBIES, THE MANUALS PROVIDED WITH bms, FINE A WORK AS THEY ARE, ARE NOT THE COMPLETE INFO THAT ONE WOULD NEED.
ONE ALSO NEEDS THE ORIGINAL FALCON 4 AND PROLLY THE AF ONES TOO.
AND IM TOO LAZY TO RETYOE THIS IN SMALL LETTERS
WELL SAID mower I CAN EVEN HEAR YOU WITH THE WINDOW OPEN
Do not forget also the F-16 MLU Documents which are excellent references"
Sometimes I think there is perhaps a little impatience to get on the stick! In real life pilots can sometimes spend more time preparing for a flight than the flight lasts for. My advice - read as much as you can cover to cover and then for specific functions use the āsearchā feature - you will find yourself getting around the manuals in faster time and when you do āget on the stickā you will recall much more. Sounds tedious but then so is trying to trawl through a manual that you have never read - takes so much longer and usually ends up out of context if you are trying to look for specific functions -
My 2 cents here, based on my experience which is low yet.
it is a very difficult SIM to learn, one canāt learn it all with out reading the manual and memberās help online and on the forums.
When I first met falcon, I was surprised with the ability to release missiles and bombs , using a radar, and all the other āfunctionalitiesā there are in this sim.
i did not speak english at all, but understood some words (most written) and I tried to learn by myself, I confess I did not like to read the manuals because they were too much. Then I practiced, and did a lot of mistakes and was killed all the timeā¦ Conclusion, Once can take off, do some maneuvers, and land without much problems, but when one think about campaign, it is extremely difficult to proceed. So, the manual are a āgoā no one can learn it without the manuals.
It is true, that it is difficult to read them all because you have to understand it all to be efficient, and skilled. Then you have to practice along with the reading.
There is where an online member will help. I could not do some missions nowadays without the patient help and teach of some of my squadronās leader and friends all around the world through internet.
Today I read the manual, because I can understand it better, and it is needed.
The most important, is the effort you will put on this sim. Do you want to learn it really, you will have to read them.
The manuals in my opinion are so important and well done as the sim itself.
Not intended to offend and nor create any party here. We are all brothers here in my opinion
Best regards Metalhead -
Not intended to offend and nor create any party here. We are all brothers here in my opinion
Best regards MetalheadI can see both sides to this. Iām sure the devs get tired of answering the same question for the 997th time, and I can see how a newcomer can find this a bit overwhelming. I recommend newcomers, or even established people, grab a manual and just skim it. I frequently will just take a manual into the Reading Room(aka bathroom) and you know what, I always find something new! I think what Iām doing, Creature, is make a āmental indexā. Iām not going to remember it all, but at least Iāll remember I saw it.
Speaking of Mower( he of stuck capitals) ,his AF to BMS conversion manual is still pertinent. It gives the newcomer at least an idea what to look for -
My post is to get people INTO those manuals that so many of you worked very hard to put together for us.
If I come up with any ideas I will let you know (not being sarcastic).
Please do; likewise any omissions, or mistakes. Post 'em in the Documentation sub-forum though please.
If you have an IPAD try opening one of the manuals in Ibooks. The search engine is a little better.
I couldnāt agree more. I know some people love their hard copies or printed books but I find iBooks on my iPad is my preferred tool for reading the pdf version of an edited document.
ONE ALSO NEEDS THE ORIGINAL FALCON 4 AND PROLLY THE AF ONES TOO.
Why? If there is something in these documents which you think should be included in the next version please let us know in the Documentation sub-forum, but not in CAPITALS
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I learned Falcon via Falcon 4 Allied Force. I was fortunate enough because the manual for that sim was very easy to get into ā- it started with the tutorials and you were able to do exactly as the manual said. You would see exactly what the manual said. Being able to do that, being able to do āthingsā in the sim, being able to drop bombs and fire missiles, that gave me a big boost in confidence from the very start. That section of the manual was easy to understand, easy to follow, and results were very clear and very quick. With that āfoot in the door,ā I had the confidence and a tiny spark of understanding to tackle the rest of the manual and others after it.
You āeat the elephant one bite at a timeā and that manual was very good at disguising the elephant. That way, the entire thing wasnāt very daunting at all.
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Errr my humble opinion hereā¦
Maybe in a way of articles or wiki (?) the manuals could be integrated in this forum.
In addition if search results first return manual results then forum results that way the RTFM will be obvious and guys will have it in the plate. -
Please also consider the fact that multiplicating sources tremendously increase our workload.
Iām not in favour of duplication, in the long term; it creates way more issues than the benefits it brings.There was no manual, community complained
there are manuals, community still complainsWhatever solution is brought, community will still complain
We agree to that, itās the way this community works. that said, it is also the prerogative of these doing the hard work to organize their work as they see fit.
itās not the users who should say how our work should be organized. you are hundredths community members each probably with different opinions.
And for one that is vocal here, there may be 25 who are silent but yet have a different opinion.So keep discussing this, some good idea might pop and we might consider it but also understand that we reserve the right to do what works best for us
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I learned Falcon via Falcon 4 Allied Force. I was fortunate enough because the manual for that sim was very easy to get into ā- it started with the tutorials and you were able to do exactly as the manual said. You would see exactly what the manual said. Being able to do that, being able to do āthingsā in the sim, being able to drop bombs and fire missiles, that gave me a big boost in confidence from the very start. That section of the manual was easy to understand, easy to follow, and results were very clear and very quick. With that āfoot in the door,ā I had the confidence and a tiny spark of understanding to tackle the rest of the manual and others after it.
You āeat the elephant one bite at a timeā and that manual was very good at disguising the elephant. That way, the entire thing wasnāt very daunting at all.
With respect but have you looked at and tried the tutorials included in BMS? These are well documented and structured to give you the same āfoot in the doorā to continue to examine and learn from the manuals.
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Maybe a bit recursive, but here goe my very modest 2 cents:
A dedicated forum in which:- Basic questions would be asked AND moved to if asked in the general forum.
- This is the place where the newcommer would be invited to ask, knowing beforehand that the question is very basic but hard for them to find among the tons of documentation as it seems to feel the first days.
- This is the place where people willing to answer would go with the assumption that the questions will be basic. Still applicable the idea to refer to the manuals, etc. But at least no one would be bothered in the general forums by questions answered over and over, not subject to āRTFMā answer.
I dropped my first Paveway yesterday after quite a few days of messing around, reading, watching tutorials etc. I am not specially afraid to ask, but I felt like I didnāt want to bother anyone because I know the answer is somewhere in the manuals. Is there really anything not in the manuals? But hey, info becomes clear only overtime. The first days are a bit hardā¦
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Good discussion. Seems to me the real point of this topic is how to address the predictable questions of newcomers (where is the nosewheel button?) in an efficient and welcoming way. To foster community growth the last thing we should be doing is discouraging newcomers with abrupt and cold RTFM replies. Perhaps establish a BMS forum topic specifically for Noobies, like Rookie Ready Room or Rookies Start Here, where newcomers can be nurtured and their monotonous questions addressed by those with the patience to do so. This topic could replace Just Saying Hello. I certainly agree that the BMS manuals are wonderful references with 98% of the information needed to become a successful BMS sim pilot and that duplication of information sources can be counter-productive. The Rookie Ready Room could have an FAQ for those Nosewheel type questions and noobies could be gently guided towards studying the manuals and learning this daunting sim.
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serolrom is on the point.
A new comer comes with super extra enthusiasm but bottom expertise or knowledge.
No one is reading the thousand pages first to go fly and test the miracle. But he canāt perform basic stuff, sooooo letās ask while Iām with hands on the stick, and the engine is burning fuelā¦
So comes the qās on basic staffā¦ doing a quick search on the manuals he canāt even know where and how.
So the easy way, the forum.
For me itās ok and the normal thing to do. Many times I also do it. I get bored to loose xx minutes or hours searching where I saw that. many times I get 5+ pages of resultsā¦ Yea rightā¦ So ask again. One of the reasons I created the hotlist.
so if the manual was integrated to the forum search engine and it was easy to discriminate results from manual and forum, in the passing of time newcomers will see the power of the manuals and where is what.
Also easy basic stuff will be in results of those searches, resulting to reduced meaningless posts. -
My cents worth. I was one of those recently who asked a pretty basic question about installation (not about systems or flight or weaponsā¦it was really basic) and got a slightly snippy reply to āread the manualā. I think if I read between the lines it was suggested I was being lazy by asking and not trawling the manuals. I asked because I was just a little overwhelmed and to be honest, I had missed the relevant documentation. I was a little put off at first but I did take the guyās point about reading the manuals. Which I ordered and have subsequently spent hours reading. So while I personally think it is always preferable to be patient with newbie questions, however basic, and answer them, I also acknowledge the effort gone into the documentation (which is amazing to be honest) and the frustration the old hands might have on this issue. I want to reinforce the point that the manuals are fantastic and it is true that the best way I think to do the ground school bit of getting into the sim is just to wade in and start reading. As the guy said to me, you will learn so much more by going through them looking for answers than simply asking. Fair point.
Apoll
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the problem with a newbee forum would be who are going to answer these newbees questions?
other newbees? old heads dedicated to that, or just ppl who think they know and might spread wrong or confusing information
the forums are full of plain wrong information and that is also a reason why ppl are confused. Some old training vids are still referred to, said by some that they are still valid while they arenāt because of that tiny detail that changed and screw the whole thing. Some even today STILL refer the Falcon 4.0 and AF manual, which is plain stupid and will confuse ppl a lot.on the other hand, when you dedicate time to learn it the right way, you will learn lots of other things at the same time. things you might not be able to digest right away, but it will trigger your interest and once you mastered what you came looking for in the first place, you may come back for that new little things you overflew, looking for more in depth detail
I dropped my first Paveway yesterday after quite a few days of messing around, reading, watching tutorials etc. I am not specially afraid to ask, but I felt like I didnāt want to bother anyone because I know the answer is somewhere in the manuals. Is there really anything not in the manuals? But hey, info becomes clear only overtime. The first days are a bit hardā¦
I guess you will never forget how to do it from now on. If somebody just told you, then you would forget within a week
thatās the interest of doing it straight with the hard way and go look for it yourself rather than relying on somebody else to simplify it for you.learning curve is steep, we all know that and newbees have to get on with that as soon as possible.
IMHO the problem is mostly the way the manuals are used. PPL wants to run before they can walk. ppl wants to be efficient in BVR or in combat tactics before they even can land the jet properly
the flying must be learned first, then the aircraft systems, then only combat. donāt expect this to come within a month. youāre looking at 4-5 years of training before getting there.
The manuals are laid out to give you all the tools to teach you to fly first , use the systems and then fight. Look at the sequence of the training missions, we didnāt start with LGB ā¦
But of course if you want to fight first, then youāll be overwhelmed, no forum will help you on that fact.Itās all the same question all over again, what youāre asking is actually what one would have if he joined a good VFW.
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@Red:
the problem with a newbee forum would be who are going to answer these newbees questions?
other newbees? old heads dedicated to that, or just ppl who think they know and might spread wrong or confusing information
the forums are full of plain wrong information and that is also a reason why ppl are confused. Some old training vids are still referred to, said by some that they are still valid while they arenāt because of that tiny detail that changed and screw the whole thing. Some even today STILL refer the Falcon 4.0 and AF manual, which is plain stupid and will confuse ppl a lot.on the other hand, when you dedicate time to learn it the right way, you will learn lots of other things at the same time. things you might not be able to digest right away, but it will trigger your interest and once you mastered what you came looking for in the first place, you may come back for that new little things you overflew, looking for more in depth detail
I guess you will never forget how to do it from now on. If somebody just told you, then you would forget within a week
thatās the interest of doing it straight with the hard way and go look for it yourself rather than relying on somebody else to simplify it for you.learning curve is steep, we all know that and newbees have to get on with that as soon as possible.
IMHO the problem is mostly the way the manuals are used. PPL wants to run before they can walk. ppl wants to be efficient in BVR or in combat tactics before they even can land the jet properly
the flying must be learned first, then the aircraft systems, then only combat. donāt expect this to come within a month. youāre looking at 4-5 years of training before getting there.
The manuals are laid out to give you all the tools to teach you to fly first , use the systems and then fight. Look at the sequence of the training missions, we didnāt start with LGB ā¦
But of course if you want to fight first, then youāll be overwhelmed, no forum will help you on that fact.Itās all the same question all over again, what youāre asking is actually what one would have if he joined a good VFW.
I simply fully agree with Red Dog.
This āvideo gameā canāt be learned in two days. You can try to find the short-cuts you want (You Tube channel with video tutorial, virtual instructors, RL instructors, Power Point presentations ā¦ etc ā¦) , except a RAM graft directly into the brain, IMO, you wonāt find it.
And if by change you find, contact the Air Force, they will probably be interested in your method to teach their fighter pilots in one week instead of several years. -
RedDog many ifās in your post.
Ppl doesnāt know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
they donāt know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
they donāt know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
they donāt have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
Others donāt have the language knowledge.
Others struggle with abbreviations.
Others with procedureā¦ as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for itā¦ wait for itā¦ now!All those are covered by the forumā¦ and they donāt mean that the manuals are not there nor that the manuals are not effective if used.
To pass from total beginner to starting to get the idea to be operational and to be top notch needs too much time and reading. In the mean time you start forgetting some. So forum again.
By just telling ppl rtfm aināt always the correct, like he gets disappointed.
In real life I donāt think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainersā¦
So all those besides manual is the forum, and since we all are not pro fighter pilots, it raises the forum factor and minimizes the manual factor.
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In real life I donāt think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainersā¦.
This is where you are totally wrong. (at least in the FAF)
When a student pilot comes to his instructor and ask a question, first thing that instructor say is: āWhat is written in your manuals?ā
When I was student, the deal was:
Day one: your receive the checklists & flight manuals, SOP procedures and tech manuals.
Day three, two, four, five: course on aircraft systems: Hydaulic, Elec, Fuel system, ā¦
One week after: First simulator where you are noted on you prefect knowledge of the cockpit (the bag test where you have to point each instruments with the finger with a bag on the head) standard checklists and emergency checklist (by heart)
The day after: Test on ground: Evaluation on SOPs (by heart) and technical exam on a/c system (minimal note accepted is 15/20).
ā¦ Three other simulator sessions.
First flight: One week after.ā¦
IRL, pilots are trained from the beginning to search AND FIND the information in their documentations and if not in their documentation, try to find in which other documentation they can find the info.
Instructorās explanation are limited to tips and flight techniques advices (how to improve their efficiency) ā¦ but basically, when a student climb into his cockpit, he already know from A to Z what he has to do, how to do and when to do it (this is more or less checked at flight brief before the flight, and if the young pilot is not knowing all what he has to know, there is no flight at all, he take his āred cardā and flight is cancels ā¦ this three times, and he is no more student pilot).
Once in flight, what is evaluated, is his aptitudes to progress, and of course, flight instructor help him by giving him tips and advices.But do not think it is the instructor who teach the student. This is not how it works.
So, your example on RL pilot wasnāt a good one Arty.
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Ppl doesnāt know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
Sticky in the Releases and Updates forum is fairly obvious, donāt you think? https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?23315-BMS-4-33-1-Documentation
they donāt know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
Sticky in General Discussion is a good place to start, nāest-ce-pas? https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?18057-List-of-Virtual-Fighter-Wings-and-Squadrons
they donāt know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
Understandable and inevitable; it is a steep learning curve and not for the faint-hearted I agree.
they donāt have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
Those seeking instant gratification need not apply.
Others donāt have the language knowledge.
The forum also has English as its language, so no different. Virtual Fighter Wings (VFWs) are the way to go for those struggling with the manuals (until someone translates them into your language).
Others struggle with abbreviations.
Thatās what Search is useful for. There should be at least one example in each document where the abbreviation sits next to the word(s) it is meant to represent (let us know in the Documentation forum if weāve missed any).
Others with procedureā¦ as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for itā¦ wait for itā¦ now!
Videos can help here certainly, but VFWs are better I agree.
By just telling ppl rtfm aināt always the correct, like he gets disappointed.
I hope we can all agree that telling people to RTFM is not acceptable; pointing them to the relevant Manual, Chapter and Page is what we should be aspiring to do.
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RedDog many ifās in your post.
Actually no.
Ppl doesnāt know if the manuals are available before downloading and installing.
wrong, And they are referenced in this very forum. A further argument to the bad use of the forum. itās there for anyone who can search for it.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?23315-BMS-4-33-Documentationthey donāt know if there are squadrons to join and take them by the hand.
Wrong, again, the info is clearly available here, maintained by you
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?18057-List-of-Virtual-Fighter-Wings-and-Squadrons&highlight=VFWthey donāt know for those sqdrns if they have what it needs to join, they feel like ants in front of elephants.
thatās BS. fortune favour the audacious. If you want something, you need to be ready to do what it takes.
If youāre scared because you feel you donāt have what it takes, then you miss the point of the purpose of the VFW (or you didnāt pick a good one)they donāt have the time for such a learning curve cause of real life matters but they want their time of Tom Cruse.
then donāt play Falcon and revert to warthunder BMS is a study sim. Study canāt be explained better in this case
Others donāt have the language knowledge.
Manuals are translated in multiple language. if one wants to do aviation stuff he should at least be ready to learn English
No argument or an argument only valid for the weak.
Look at Metalhead story. Iām like him. My first motivation to learn English was the flight sim manuals I was interested when I was 15ā¦. almost 30 years ago.Others struggle with abbreviations.
you canāt be ion military stuff if youāre not ready to learn abbreviation
Others with procedureā¦ as good as the manuals are can not mimic the actual procedure like the wait for itā¦ wait for itā¦ now!
procedure is part of the military and even the civilian aviation. Again, itās not a game, itās a study sim. It has nothing to do with the debated subject
In real life I donāt think the pilots are given the manual and the next x day they jump to the pit without any contact with trainers or listening, or hud videos presentation or asking and answering between co pilots and trainersā¦.
Lol I was expecting this one, but youāre wrong they are given the manuals and then they have tests on them and if they donāt past these tests, they are fired or put back driving trucks for the duration of their contract. and thatās even before getting anywhere close to a real aircraft !!
They have no forum support, only squadron support and they certainly have to work hard to get what they want.
Maybe we should organise written tests on the manuals before giving forum access to ppl here Dj, what do you saySo all those besides manual is the forum, and since we all are not pro fighter pilots, it raises the forum factor and minimizes the manual factor.
imho, thatās wrong. the manuals should be used by VFW to train their guys properly and link the theory to the practical things
The forum is just a place where one looses his time. Time that should be better spent flying -
One week after: First simulator where you are noted on you prefect knowledge of the cockpit (the bag test where you have to point each instruments with the finger with a bag on the head) standard checklists and emergency checklist (by heart)
one āgoodā example
ā¦ even without speaking french, you will understand at 4:20 that things at not going very well.
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Falcon BMS is an entertainment medium, not military flight training! āThose seeking instant gratification need not apply?ā A bit elitist, donāt you think? I picture someone who happens to stumble onto BMS and decides to check it out. They may have no HOTAS and no flight sim experience. Do we expect that they will spend 10 hours reading manuals before they jump in the jet for the first time to try to fly? Not likely IMO, but they will very quickly realize there is a lot to learn before they can enjoy the BMS experience. Some will decide the effort is not worth pursuing, but those who decide to accept the challenge could be encouraged by a quick and easy resource of BASIC information. Maybe a Rookie FAQ sticky would serve a worthwhile purpose. These are exactly the nuggets who ask the NWS questions and they should be steered towards the manuals and training missions.
āwho are going to answer these newbees questions?ā Anyone who thinks they can help. Occasional bad advice can not be prevented, but I have noticed that bad advice is normally quickly identified and corrected by others.