"Read The Manual" replies
-
ENOUGH !
I’m not sure how many of you have actually been through actual military flight training or how many of you have any actual combat aircraft under your belts; but, given some of the snotty answers given on this thread, the answer appears to be ‘NONE’.
Here’s how it goes in the REAL world of military aviation……
You get buried in reference materials and things to learn. There is PLENTY of reading, memorizing, browsing BUT you are given a syllabus. You are provided a way to get from schoolhouse door to flightdeck. Systems, avionics, weapons training, weather, aeronautical knowledge…all picked up along the way. Drilled, messed up, drilled again, fixed and built upon- and that is where mentorship comes into play, HEAVILY.
SO to all of you RTFM jerks out there, I challenge you to get over yourselves, specifically the pride you take in your proficiency; it means NOTHING unless you can convey/share it.
Without a syllabus, some sort of roadmap to get from enthusiastic noob to fully operational line pilot, this community is doomed to dwindling down to those so proud of their own efforts, they’ll forever be legends in their own minds, for there will be no other minds around willing to tolerate the stench of their elitist, dismissive, unwelcoming efforts at killing off the concept of mentorship.…oh, and yeah, there is a LOT of that mentorship going on in the real flying world, military and otherwise.
Govern yourselves accordingly.
-
ENOUGH !
I’m not sure how many of you have actually been through actual military flight training or how many of you have any actual combat aircraft under your belts; but, given some of the snotty answers given on this thread, the answer appears to be ‘NONE’.
Too bad, there are Not me, admittedly.
Here’s how it goes in the REAL world of military aviation……
You get buried in reference materials and things to learn. There is PLENTY of reading, memorizing, browsing BUT you are given a syllabus. You are provided a way to get from schoolhouse door to flightdeck. Systems, avionics, weapons training, weather, aeronautical knowledge…all picked up along the way. Drilled, messed up, drilled again, fixed and built upon- and that is where mentorship comes into play, HEAVILY.
And the BMS training manual and missions are … what, exactly ?
-
ENOUGH !
No need to get bent.
Mind explaining boresighting mavericks to me? I haven’t read that part of the manual yet. :mrgreen:
-
No need to get bent.
Mind explaining boresighting mavericks to me? I haven’t read that part of the manual yet. :mrgreen:
Sure thing, just stand in front of my jet bro.
-
ENOUGH !
I’m not sure how many of you have actually been through actual military flight training or how many of you have any actual combat aircraft under your belts; but, given some of the snotty answers given on this thread, the answer appears to be ‘NONE’.
Here’s how it goes in the REAL world of military aviation……
You get buried in reference materials and things to learn. There is PLENTY of reading, memorizing, browsing BUT you are given a syllabus. You are provided a way to get from schoolhouse door to flightdeck. Systems, avionics, weapons training, weather, aeronautical knowledge…all picked up along the way. Drilled, messed up, drilled again, fixed and built upon- and that is where mentorship comes into play, HEAVILY.
SO to all of you RTFM jerks out there, I challenge you to get over yourselves, specifically the pride you take in your proficiency; it means NOTHING unless you can convey/share it.
Without a syllabus, some sort of roadmap to get from enthusiastic noob to fully operational line pilot, this community is doomed to dwindling down to those so proud of their own efforts, they’ll forever be legends in their own minds, for there will be no other minds around willing to tolerate the stench of their elitist, dismissive, unwelcoming efforts at killing off the concept of mentorship.…oh, and yeah, there is a LOT of that mentorship going on in the real flying world, military and otherwise.
Govern yourselves accordingly.
Bud you are never going to get that on your own. The only place you can get close to that is with a VFW or VFS. You’re asking for something very specialized and quite frankly you need a good instructor who knows what they’re doing. It takes tremendous amounts of time and unless you’re going to be flying with me regularly the best you’re going to get is quick answers, but never the whole picture, especially on a FORUM which is nearly impossible. There is simply too much to cover for one question that leads to another question that leads to another. For every hour of flight instruction you’re looking at almost the equivilent on the ground studying for that one event. And you think you’re somehow going to get this through text or on a forum? Go join a VFW if that’s what you’re looking for, but demanding that we hold your hand and invest in you, when you haven’t invested yourself to real dedication it takes to master this sim, you’ve no room to bark how it’s done. There is no snottiness to it, it’s just reality bud you’re not going to get these answers unless you gasp RTFM and get your hands dirty in the books. That’s how it’s done: education -> knowledge -> application. Go do it!
-
Sure thing, just stand in front of my jet bro.
This is all you would see from me in front of your jet!
However, if they ever have a two seater I’ll be first in line to be your WSO!
-
Bud you are never going to get that on your own. The only place you can get close to that is with a VFW or VFS. You’re asking for something very specialized and quite frankly you need a good instructor who knows what they’re doing. It takes tremendous amounts of time and unless you’re going to be flying with me regularly the best you’re going to get is quick answers, but never the whole picture, especially on a FORUM which is nearly impossible. There is simply too much to cover for one question that leads to another question that leads to another. For every hour of flight instruction you’re looking at almost the equivilent on the ground studying for that one event. And you think you’re somehow going to get this through text or on a forum? Go join a VFW if that’s what you’re looking for, but demanding that we hold your hand and invest in you, when you haven’t invested yourself to real dedication it takes to master this sim, you’ve no room to bark how it’s done. There is no snottiness to it, it’s just reality bud you’re not going to get these answers unless you gasp RTFM and get your hands dirty in the books. That’s how it’s done: education -> knowledge -> application. Go do it!
I demand nothing of the sort.
In fact, I observe; the distinction is important. That this reality bugs you is your problem, but reality intrudes.Funny you mention the invention of this sim we love, though……why was it invented and presented to anyone with the bandwidth to download it if NOT to share the knowledge, the skills, and the sense of accomplishment that comes with the pursuit of those knowledge and skills ?? Falcon’s very existence stands at odds with this flippant ‘I know more than you do, figure it out’ attitude that in no way maintains and enhances anything beyond the fragile ego of one so self absorbed as to be such a jerk.
So far as ‘barking’ how it is done; it is inconsistent at best to create this sim and its manuals to be as realistic as possible (VERY realistic) and then fail to go the distance by providing the basic structure all military aviation students receive. I refer not to detailed lesson plans and 1 on 1 instruction. A simple syllabus with tasks and standards works just fine. If this is the part where you expect me to believe that a mere ‘Noob’s FAQ’ regarding how to start, to progress, to become proficient, and to sustain proficiency is far too taxing given the ridiculous level of detail apparent in the manuals alone, to say nothing of the flight model, weapons, systems, ad infinitum, ad nausea- you are terribly mistaken. Makes no sense at all, nor does getting all ‘RTFM’ about getting the same questions over and over in the absence of such a resource.
Me ?
I’m fine, I’ve multiple military combat acft under my belt and fly for a living. I know what I need and where to look for what I don’t know. I am, by NO means, ‘typical’ in that regard. The idea is to attract others to this community, to keep it growing, to share. Do consider that, Redshift, next time you think of "RTFM"ing any of us noobs to suit some personal sense of piousness when it comes to ‘knowing your stuff’.Education does not do well in a vacuum.
-
So far as ‘barking’ how it is done; it is inconsistent at best to create this sim and its manuals to be as realistic as possible (VERY realistic) and then fail to go the distance by providing the basic structure all military aviation students receive. I refer not to detailed lesson plans and 1 on 1 instruction. A simple syllabus with tasks and standards works just fine. If this is the part where you expect me to believe that a mere ‘Noob’s FAQ’ regarding how to start, to progress, to become proficient, and to sustain proficiency is far too taxing given the ridiculous level of detail apparent in the manuals alone, to say nothing of the flight model, weapons, systems, ad infinitum, ad nausea- you are terribly mistaken. Makes no sense at all, nor does getting all ‘RTFM’ about getting the same questions over and over in the absence of such a resource.
Pardon me, but isn’t this exactly what the Training Manual is? A step by step series of instructions that teaches you how to do things in the sim with references back to the appropriate chapters in the full manuals should you need more information?
-
That’s what I was telling you, some of the wings do this to a very high level that you’d be surprised how detailed they are and the syllabus’ they provide, unbelievable and is exactly what you’re talking about, but folks wont get there by asking questions on a forum, they have to pursue that for themselves and seek that out. The devs can’t do it for them, which is what this place and website is, the central hub of the BMS community to connect people, not train people. They do a really good job providing the amount of materials they have in that “Docs” folder and the other stuff you can get through the many freely public USAF docs and militaries abroad.
People learn this by the hard knocks you get from practice and finding people on your own who are the best and brightest at this. I can lead the horse to the water, but making him drink is another thing all together and you can’t mentor through a manual as you say, there is not enough time in the day to train everyone because not everyone has the same aptitude, talent, ability, intelligence, ect to understand the complex maneuvering environment of ACM, understanding the differences and reasons of choosing a bracket, fan, WID, ect at the merge and WHY plus how to establish roles and effectively support your buddy in the EF/SF scenario. Some you just can’t pound that into no matter how much you try, but those who have the raw stuff to actually “get it” will do so through their hard work and study of a good RTFMing
But to say that everyone here isn’t trying to teach I’d say it’s actually the opposite. All the people saying read read read are saying so because that’s how you get the finer details while you learn from your training applying what you’ve read in the simulator and this time frame just like in the real world takes 2-4 years to complete. As Red Dog said earlier folks want to run before they can walk, they can’t even fly the overhead approach and land at 3 over 1 on the Papi at 13 AOA everytime, but want to run advanced intercepts on bandits with a flight of two or four? Love to teach, but a lot of people take and don’t give back so most people screen and choose wisely before investing to teach someone, cause nothing sucks more than to spend 50 hours combined showing someone, they quit, for some they view it as “just a game.” There are a lot of factors involved to “RTFM” than simple rudeness, you have to choose other pilots who wont waste your time too.
So I totally get that education does not do well in a vacuum, but it’s about how deep you get into it and who you share it with.
-
Pardon me, but isn’t this exactly what the Training Manual is? A step by step series of instructions that teaches you how to do things in the sim with references back to the appropriate chapters in the full manuals should you need more information?
No pardon required.
It is a start.
It is by no means comprehensive, nor is it meant to be. -
That’s what I was telling you, some of the wings do this to a very high level that you’d be surprised how detailed they are and the syllabus’ they provide, unbelievable and is exactly what you’re talking about, but folks wont get there by asking questions on a forum, they have to pursue that for themselves and seek that out. The devs can’t do it for them, which is what this place and website is, the central hub of the BMS community to connect people, not train people. They do a really good job providing the amount of materials they have in that “Docs” folder and the other stuff you can get through the many freely public USAF docs and militaries abroad.
People learn this by the hard knocks you get from practice and finding people on your own who are the best and brightest at this. I can lead the horse to the water, but making him drink is another thing all together and you can’t mentor through a manual as you say, there is not enough time in the day to train everyone because not everyone has the same aptitude, talent, ability, intelligence, ect to understand the complex maneuvering environment of ACM, understanding the differences and reasons of choosing a bracket, fan, WID, ect at the merge and WHY plus how to establish roles and effectively support your buddy in the EF/SF scenario. Some you just can’t pound that into no matter how much you try, but those who have the raw stuff to actually “get it” will do so through their hard work and study of a good RTFMing
But to say that everyone here isn’t trying to teach I’d say it’s actually the opposite. All the people saying read read read are saying so because that’s how you get the finer details while you learn from your training applying what you’ve read in the simulator and this time frame just like in the real world takes 2-4 years to complete. As Red Dog said earlier folks want to walk before they can run, they can’t even fly the overhead approach and land at 3 over 1 on the Papi at 13 AOA everytime, but want to run advanced intercepts on bandits with a flight of two or four? Love to teach, but a lot of people take and don’t give back so most people screen and choose wisely before investing to teach someone, cause nothing sucks more than to spend 50 hours combined showing someone, they quit, for some they view it as “just a game.” There are a lot of factors involved to “RTFM” than simple rudeness, you have to choose other pilots who wont waste your time too.
So I totally get that education does not do well in a vacuum, but it’s about how deep you get into it and who you share it with.
Whether by design or lethargy, you consistently misconstrue what I have plainly stated.
Mentorship is not done by manual. As such, it follows that it is also not done by "RTFM, noob ! "
A basic framework, as you mentioned with the wings, won’t allow advanced or even basic ACM without being able to land consistently. Tasks, conditions, standards and all that. I’m new to the online aspect of this sim but have been dorking around with it since it was on 5.25 floppy disk; I’ll take a look at some of these wings and see what they have to offer.…but that is only interesting.
“RTFM” is poison- full stop, end of list. If someone wants to respond to a noob question, good on them ! That someone has even loaded and configured this sim is sorta proof positive they are ready to learn.
I’ll watch for what you have mentioned, though, Redshift; just 'cause I ain’t seen it (yet) don’t mean it ain’t out there. -
Mentorship is not done by manual.
Nor is it commonly conferred via forums. Not to mention that more than a few persons asking for quick advice have no desire in being mentored.
As such, it follows that it is also not done by "RTFM, noob ! "
Thus the many posts by others in this thread stating that a proper mentorship can be acquired via the many virtual wings available. Also, if you note the example set by the BMS devs, they often answer the novice’s question as well as direct them to the manual and page number where they can explore the answer themselves. The “teach the man to fish” aphorism also explored in this thread.
“RTFM” is poison- full stop, end of list.
I would be interested in hearing what your superiors’ reactions were when you told them you did not have the time to read the manual before arriving at class.
If someone wants to respond to a noob question, good on them !
See above regarding Dev’s answers.
That someone has even loaded and configured this sim is sorta proof positive they are ready to learn.
No, it merely means that they paid $2.50 for an outdated sim and paid $0.00 for an add on that increases their initial investment many times over.
-
I remember when I first started with Falcon Allied Force. I spent the weekend pissed off at how it was two days and I still couldn’t start the damn jet. I went to Frugal’s world and that only made me more confused :D.
I was annoyed that there wasn’t some thread or website with all the answers to my questions and wondered why the Lead Pursuit website FAQ didn’t have more answers. But not long after I realized all the answers were there in the 700+ page manual. I just didn’t want to invest the time reading it. I wanted the answers now so I could blow stuff up. I bitched and moaned but I wanted to know how to fly the sim so I went through the entire manual and did the training TEs and slowly figured it out. When my learning slowed down and I wanted to learn more I joined a VFW.
I think a lot of new Falcon flyers go through that phase where they see a cool video and want to download the sim and start doing what they saw in the video right away. And in most cases with other video games you can do that. But Falcon isn’t one of those video games. Even if there was a tutorial for every aspect of the sim, it would still take a lot of time and work to master (I’m eight years in and still working on it lol). As a result, I think it attracts a certain crowd that values people who are willing to invest the same time that they did to learn it. That is part of where I think the RTFM comes from.
However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are willing to help. Even before 4.33’s much improved in depth manuals, if you spend some time looking, you will see youtube tutorial videos (i.e. what Krouse did with 4.32) or countless others on youtube showing you step-by-step how to do almost everything you can think of. You don’t even have to join a VFW. There is Falcon Online or other public servers with knowledgeable people willing to help too. So I disagree that the information isn’t out there or that it is hidden somewhere. Go on youtube and type in what you are looking for.
Also, there are tons of people here who are willing to help. But it’s not fair to be upset at them for expecting you to do a little work yourself. If you truly can’t find the answer to your question that is one thing, but if you haven’t even taken the time to look, don’t be surprised when someone says RTFM.
-
Nor is it commonly conferred via forums. Not to mention that more than a few persons asking for quick advice have no desire in being mentored.
Thus the many posts by others in this thread stating that a proper mentorship can be acquired via the many virtual wings available. Also, if you note the example set by the BMS devs, they often answer the novice’s question as well as direct them to the manual and page number where they can explore the answer themselves. The “teach the man to fish” aphorism also explored in this thread.
I would be interested in hearing what your superiors’ reactions were when you told them you did not have the time to read the manual before arriving at class.
See above regarding Dev’s answers.
No, it merely means that they paid $2.50 for an outdated sim and paid $0.00 for an add on that increases their initial investment many times over.
Pumpyhead,
You live up to the name……well.Be ye advised that when I did show up, my IPs did not simply say ‘RTFM, maggot’. I was confronted with stair step training, a logical way to get from point A to B and beyond. That’s how it works in the real world.
I do not know exactly what abject lack of esteem has led to supporting the clubbing of baby seals for no other reason than ‘you can’, nor do I care. What I do know is that it’s truly your problem, not mine.
I believe you.
You are a jerk.
Congrats ?Dismissed.
-
I remember when I first started with Falcon Allied Force. I spent the weekend pissed off at how it was two days and I still couldn’t start the damn jet. I went to Frugal’s world and that only made me more confused :D.
I was annoyed that there wasn’t some thread or website with all the answers to my questions and wondered why the Lead Pursuit website FAQ didn’t have more answers. But not long after I realized all the answers were there in the 700+ page manual. I just didn’t want to invest the time reading it. I wanted the answers now so I could blow stuff up. I bitched and moaned but I wanted to know how to fly the sim so I went through the entire manual and did the training TEs and slowly figured it out. When my learning slowed down and I wanted to learn more I joined a VFW.
I think a lot of new Falcon flyers go through that phase where they see a cool video and want to download the sim and start doing what they saw in the video right away. And in most cases with other video games you can do that. But Falcon isn’t one of those video games. Even if there was a tutorial for every aspect of the sim, it would still take a lot of time and work to master (I’m eight years in and still working on it lol). As a result, I think it attracts a certain crowd that values people who are willing to invest the same time that they did to learn it. That is part of where I think the RTFM comes from.
However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are willing to help. Even before 4.33’s much improved in depth manuals, if you spend some time looking, you will see youtube tutorial videos (i.e. what Krouse did with 4.32) or countless others on youtube showing you step-by-step how to do almost everything you can think of. You don’t even have to join a VFW. There is Falcon Online or other public servers with knowledgeable people willing to help too. So I disagree that the information isn’t out there or that it is hidden somewhere. Go on youtube and type in what you are looking for.
Also, there are tons of people here who are willing to help. But it’s not fair to be upset at them for expecting you to do a little work yourself. If you truly can’t find the answer to your question that is one thing, but if you haven’t even taken the time to look, don’t be surprised when someone says RTFM.
Duly noted.
Thanks for the resources. -
This is not military for the enough attitude to be accepted.
In military either you sack it up or you quit in disgrace.Here is free world.
Now the coin has 3 sides, not two.
Ppl asking questions here might very well know the reading and what is needed to learn it, but we all forger something fundamental here. He or she hasn’t decided yet, is still in the research mod. Do you think he would go through the normal way? Would you? And after xx months oops bms sacks back time… I don’t think so guys.The subject - thread long gone to utopia land…
Suggestions guys to make the path easier.
If we want to help both sides.We took the turn of going towards personal I believe.
sent from my Xperia Z3 compact via TapaTalk
-
…
Some ppl spent hundreds or thousand, or several thousands of hours : developing the sim, creating 3D models, creating manuals, supporting a forum, giving their 15+ years of Falcon4 experience (everything for free of course) … and some other ppl calls them “jerk”.
This is the another side of the beauty of this community.
-
Yeap specially that guy with the FM he still doesn’t get it he got it all wrong :lol:
sent from my Xperia Z3 compact via TapaTalk
-
ENOUGH !
I’m not sure how many of you have actually been through actual military flight training or how many of you have any actual combat aircraft under your belts; but, given some of the snotty answers given on this thread, the answer appears to be ‘NONE’.
Here’s how it goes in the REAL world of military aviation……
You get buried in reference materials and things to learn. There is PLENTY of reading, memorizing, browsing BUT you are given a syllabus. You are provided a way to get from schoolhouse door to flightdeck. Systems, avionics, weapons training, weather, aeronautical knowledge…all picked up along the way. Drilled, messed up, drilled again, fixed and built upon- and that is where mentorship comes into play, HEAVILY.
Your knowledges seems to be limited to your country only (?)
Speaking about RL military formation … It doesn’t exactly works the same everywhere. Of course, yes, there are syllabus blah blah blah … but the mentor will not teach you how to start your engine.A trainee who is not self-educated has ZERO chance to finish the course and will never be graduated (c.f. some of my previous posts).
Now, we are used to know that there is a big difference between Anglo-Saxon pedagogy and the French pedagogy which is (I can admit) relatively particular. :munch: (Sometimes, I dreamt of being English, American, or even Belgian. )
-
Seems that you’ve posted some interesting things … so I am curious about the rest …
, to say nothing of the flight model, weapons, systems, ad infinitum, ad nausea- you are terribly mistaken. Makes no sense at all, nor does getting all ‘RTFM’ about getting the same questions over and over in the absence of such a resource.
…
Dismissed
Humm … of course, one must be curious to be able to find more than the “General Discussion” forum room.
… and you know, this is mainly the purposes of VFW which are also providing syllabus, documents and helps on their forums. Quite often, in their “native” languages.
I think you can go out, (and close the door behind you, it is cold here! )
And when/if you will be back …
So far as ‘barking’ how it is done; it is inconsistent at best to create this sim and its manuals to be as realistic as possible (VERY realistic) and then fail to go the distance by providing the basic structure all military aviation students receive.
… please, to not come without some (consistent) syllabus to provide (maybe a Website! :D) which will better than the shit we have for now.
I can’t wait to know how you will share your knowledges and what are the A to Z basic structure that all military aviation students receive. (just curious maybe I could propose it the the FAF training school commander. Because for now, they only have this … ONLY (not talking about check-lists of courses), but has almost to be known by heart.