Why Virtual Reality for BMS would improve the experience by order of magnitudes.
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Ok, but would you guys be interested in a custom flight helmet style mounted VR that allowed you to look under at your cockpit/peripherals like NVGs are used IRL?
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Ok, but would you guys be interested in a custom flight helmet style mounted VR that allowed you to look under at your cockpit/peripherals like NVGs are used IRL?
No. Nosepeeking is a brutal immersion killer.
What will probably work well is something like Microsoft’s HoloLens augmented reality system, which will allow for showing the aircraft surroundings above the cockpit, and show anything below straight through as if there was nothing there. And no, using a camera on the VR system to overlay is not even remotely the same thing.
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No. Nosepeeking is a brutal immersion killer.
That makes no sense to me especially if you have a full cockpit. Also “nosepeeking” is exactly what you have to do IRL with NVGs. I’m not talking the current gaps, I talking a completely open bottom.
Just showing for reference because I’m not sure everybody has got this when I threw it out before. Obivously with VR you would fill in the sides and the top, but shoot for the same amount of under space. I also think in the long run helmet mounted VR would be more comfortable despite how long for me a personal limit was not to wear a helmet while flight simming -
That makes no sense to me especially if you have a full cockpit.
That is because you’ve never done it.
Also “nosepeeking” is exactly what you have to do IRL with NVGs. I’m not talking the current gaps, I talking a completely open bottom.
No. It’s not. You don’t see a room around you when you peek out under NVG’s.
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I can’t do any of that blindfolded.
Can you detail exactly what of this you couldn’t do blindfolded, and exactly why? I see no reason for why you’d need to see either your mouse or keyboard in the scenario Wolf said you can do blindfolded. No insults intended, if you can’t flip the Missile/Dogfight switch and click the Emergency Jettison without looking at your HOTAS and mouse first, you should actually see a doctor about that.
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That makes no sense to me especially if you have a full cockpit.
That is because you’ve never done it.
No. It’s not. You don’t see a room around you when you peek out under NVG’s.
I have a little, but I do have a lower realism cockpit around me. All I’m seeing is the stuff under it which for me is my other monitors, MFDs, HOTAS, etc., not really getting much of the rest of the room.
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Can you detail exactly what of this you couldn’t do blindfolded, and exactly why?
Push the ICP buttons on my touch screen and hover with my finger over the jettison stores button on the touch screen while looking over my shoulder for an enemy aircraft.
I see no reason for why you’d need to see either your mouse or keyboard in the scenario Wolf said you can do blindfolded.
Me either. What I need is my ICP and a button on the dashboard.
No insults intended, if you can’t flip the Missile/Dogfight switch and click the Emergency Jettison without looking at your HOTAS and mouse first, you should actually see a doctor about that.
I wouldn’t look at either my HOTAS or my mouse. But if I need my mouse for it, I would definitely need to look at the mouse pointer, which would require locking my head in place forward while I hover over the jettison button - which would make it impossible to look for the enemy aircraft at the same time. And in the scenario I provided, I wouldn’t use the HOTAS switch. It’s just stressful, not immediate. I can see why someone who does not have a touch screen would use the HOTAS switch though, but to me that is yet one more argument against having less interfaces.
I should add that when I fly NOE letting go of the stick is not an option, and I can’t use my mouse quickly with my left hand - so using that to click on ICP and Jettison is not really an option no matter what.
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So this thread is really just actually back to people with MFDs, apps, etc. (a minority) telling us that VR isn’t working because its incompatible with their setups?
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I wouldn’t look at either my HOTAS or my mouse. But if I need my mouse for it, I would definitely need to look at the mouse pointer, which would require locking my head in place forward while I hover over the jettison button - which would make it impossible to look for the enemy aircraft at the same time. And in the scenario I provided, I wouldn’t use the HOTAS switch. It’s just stressful, not immediate. I can see why someone who does not have a touch screen would use the HOTAS switch though, but to me that is yet one more argument against having less interfaces.
I should add that when I fly NOE letting go of the stick is not an option, and I can’t use my mouse quickly with my left hand - so using that to click on ICP and Jettison is not really an option no matter what.
You dont use the mouse for the operations described instead, you press the ICP buttons and punch the emergency jettison button. Obviously if you dont have those physical parts in front of you, you will find it hard to do blindfolded. Touchscreen or mouse.
Letting go of the stick is not an option any time, unless you are on the ground. Its no coincidence that almost everything you need to adjust in flight, is on the left hand side of the craft… taking the hand off the throttle is okay. Hand off the stick? risky… depends what you are doing.
And as for punching buttons in the ICP while flying NOE? Also not an option. If you are doing something that requires inside the cockpit work at that level, there is a single response to all your problems - climb to cope.
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So this thread is really just actually back to people with MFDs, apps, etc. (a minority) telling us that VR isn’t working because its incompatible with their setups?
Seems that way to me too. I doubt VR will be forced on anyone. If you’d rather go for the IRL immersion than VR immersion then cool. Likewise, VR rather than IRL? Also cool.
I hope the devs will see the popularity of VR in other cockpit sims and consider adding support in BMS. DCS is stunning in the Rift. Is it perfect? No. Far from it (personally think CV1 should have been called DK3…). You can’t read any labels for switches in the cockpit and the MFDs are slightly hard to read, same goes for the smaller gauges. It’s still an amazing thing to experience.
I don’t see any harm in people registering their votes for VR to be considered. Even with all of the concerns & issues that will need to be worked out, surely it’s worth at least thinking about the feature? At least then we can all work together to resolve any of the issues that might crop up.
Cheers,
Del.
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You dont use the mouse for the operations described instead, you press the ICP buttons and punch the emergency jettison button. Obviously if you dont have those physical parts in front of you, you will find it hard to do blindfolded. Touchscreen or mouse.
Not hard. Impossible. With actual physical buttons I would find it hard, as I do not spend the enormous amount of time getting it into my subconscious that real fighter pilots do. I have a job, and other hobbies, and not that much drive. If I did, I would be a fighter pilot.
Letting go of the stick is not an option any time, unless you are on the ground. Its no coincidence that almost everything you need to adjust in flight, is on the left hand side of the craft… taking the hand off the throttle is okay. Hand off the stick? risky… depends what you are doing.
Which is why the mouse is a horrid choice for me. Perhaps not for others. But I find it slow and error prone to use with my left hand.
And as for punching buttons in the ICP while flying NOE? Also not an option. If you are doing something that requires inside the cockpit work at that level, there is a single response to all your problems - climb to cope.
Perhaps not if you use the mouse. With a physical ICP, or even a touch screen, no problem. No need to climb. In fact, last time that happened, I went lower to avoid detection while I punched stuff into the ICP.
And that is why I won’t replace that with VR.
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I don’t see any harm in people registering their votes for VR to be considered. Even with all of the concerns & issues that will need to be worked out, surely it’s worth at least thinking about the feature? At least then we can all work together to resolve any of the issues that might crop up.
The first issue that crops up is that some of the modern VR libraries, like the Oculus Rift one, do not work with DirectX 9.
That makes it a lot of work to implement VR support. I would much rather see that work go into improving the sim.
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So this thread is really just actually back to people with MFDs, apps, etc. (a minority) telling us that VR isn’t working because its incompatible with their setups?
Yep. One solution to the MFD problem is putting the MFD’s where they physically exist in the cockpit. Then the screen view of your pilot (BMS MFD’s) would match up with the actual position of your MFDs on your desk. In BMS you still wouldn’t necessarily see your virtual hands, but that isn’t required. Just the same as you can close your eyes, extend your arms out to your sides, and still manage to touch your finger to your nose without looking. Your brain knows where your body is. If the virtual space matches up with your physical space, you’ll be able to use the MFD’s without much trouble.
Touchscreens are more of a difficult issue, with the obvious lack of tactile feedback. Not an unsolvable problem by any means, but one that requires a bit more work. That’s presuming that the people interested in VR already have those other things, which they certainly may or may not have.
There are plenty of ways VR can work, and plenty of other games which will use VR other than BMS. The more people who buy into VR, the more software titles you’ll see either upgrade to support it, or include it from the start.
So don’t let anyone talk you out of buying VR if you want it. It doesn’t have to work for their setup - it only has to work for you.
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I have been aware of VR since around 1990 when it was about to be the next big thing.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I have no doubt that will happen. And when it does it will be a very good thing. The technology to have proper three dimensional finger tracking is already out there. However the only package I’m aware of currently that can do that seems to be forward facing only. But when you can match up a VR headset with the ability to reach out and touch buttons and rotate dials that will be when VR is truly compatible with complex simulations such as BMS.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
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If the virtual space matches up with your physical space, you’ll be able to use the MFD’s without much trouble.
I’ve tried a similar setup, at an arcade hall, with a pair of guns which had trackers and were visible in the VR environment. It’s not nearly as easy as that. It’s slow and error prone, especially in stressful situations. When starting out, with plenty of time to do things and no stress it was easy enough to switch guns, put one down and pick the other up. When the monsters came running it was a different matter. Nearly impossible. It got messy. Nice adrenaline kick though.
My experience is that we rely a lot on being able to see ourselves, even if only out of the corner of our eyes. A quick glance, often subconscious, helps us put our finger exactly where we wanted it to be. That is not possible in a VR setup. Not yet, anyway. Perhaps in five years. Or with an AR setup.
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I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
On the contrary. I didn’t spend a fortune of my own money on a VR set because I am against VR. It’s wonderful.
But the limitations of VR have been the same for a decade now. The latest and greatest VR sets are incremental improvements, not game changers. They still suffer from too much latency (though that is a lot better with the new Rift), too low resolution (MUCH too low resolution, still) and lack of 6DOF precision. But they’re amazing for a lot of applications. One of my favourite pastimes used to be Drakan, a dragon flying simulator, which turned absolutely astonishing in VR. And some of the old WWI flight sims really gave a fantastic feeling of immersion.
For something like an F-16, I just can’t find a decent way to manage inputs while in a VR environment. Managing avionics under stress is tricky enough as it is. When not being able to reach out and use controls I just can’t handle it using a mouse, especially not with the reduced fidelity of a VR set. Perhaps that is just me.
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Ok, but would you guys be interested in a custom flight helmet style mounted VR that allowed you to look under at your cockpit/peripherals like NVGs are used IRL?
Nosepeeking is a workaround. I’m more interested in something like the “mixed reality” video I linked on my post #106. Also, aren’t the “seals” on VR gear supposed to 1) hold the displays in place and 2) block out other non-video distractions? A completely open VR setup would be interesting to try out, but is still a workaround.
Can you detail exactly what of this you couldn’t do blindfolded, and exactly why? I see no reason for why you’d need to see either your mouse or keyboard in the scenario Wolf said you can do blindfolded. No insults intended, if you can’t flip the Missile/Dogfight switch and click the Emergency Jettison without looking at your HOTAS and mouse first, you should actually see a doctor about that.
Go in your car, close your eyes, and try to adjust the airconditioning or change the radio station (assuming this control isn’t on the steering wheel). Fiddle around with the aircon settings (blowing to the feet, or to the windows, etc.). If there are a few buttons on the dash, try to see how accurate you are at hitting a particular button. You CAN do all of this with your eyes closed, sure. Then try it again the “normal” way which is to sneak a quick glance, reach for the control, operate the control, and maybe sneak another quick glance to verify it’s set correctly. And this is fiddling with physical controls.
I use a touchscreen. How accurate do you think I can be intentionally touching a specific point on the screen while blindfolded?
So this thread is really just actually back to people with MFDs, apps, etc. (a minority) telling us that VR isn’t working because its incompatible with their setups?
Yes, because that is still the issue with VR. The way our MFDs/apps/etc. improve the way I interact with the cockpit outweighs what VR brings to the table for me. As I said many times, if all you need is on the HOTAS, such as in Elite Dangerous + Voice Attack, then VR is undeniably a step forward. However, in BMS, with the need to interact with charts, data cards, checklists… even if you don’t own a single Cougar MFD or touchscreen, even if all you have is TrackIR, HOTAS, rudders, keyboard, mouse… you will still want to interact with printed material. That’s where VR gets in the way.
Unless, of course, you only fly mostly SP or in small groups, or just dogfights, or fly BMS more like Ace Combat than an actual study sim and trying to do things as real as you can.
You dont use the mouse for the operations described instead, you press the ICP buttons and punch the emergency jettison button. Obviously if you dont have those physical parts in front of you, you will find it hard to do blindfolded. Touchscreen or mouse.
Unfortunately, I am right handed so to use the mouse, I have to use my right hand. Using the left hand just ups the difficulty 1,000% However, with a touchscreen, I can manipulate the ICP or other stuff with my left hand, as intended. Even in NOE.
Seems that way to me too. I doubt VR will be forced on anyone. If you’d rather go for the IRL immersion than VR immersion then cool. Likewise, VR rather than IRL? Also cool.
I hope the devs will see the popularity of VR in other cockpit sims and consider adding support in BMS. DCS is stunning in the Rift. Is it perfect? No. Far from it (personally think CV1 should have been called DK3…). You can’t read any labels for switches in the cockpit and the MFDs are slightly hard to read, same goes for the smaller gauges. It’s still an amazing thing to experience.
I don’t see any harm in people registering their votes for VR to be considered. Even with all of the concerns & issues that will need to be worked out, surely it’s worth at least thinking about the feature? At least then we can all work together to resolve any of the issues that might crop up.
I’m not saying VR is being forced on anyone. I’m not denying VR is cool. However, what’s happening here is exactly what you are talking about –- we have identified a concern/issue with VR and so far, there doesn’t seem to be a resolution aside from calling us out for having a different simpit setup.
If there is a poll from the devs about VR integration, my vote will be to include VR, but maybe at a lower priority. That still doesn’t mean that the concern/issue I have identified will have been resolved.
Also, consider this: if the people who have MFDs, apps, etc. are a minority, how many do you think will be going with VR considering the cost of the VR and the hardware required? How would you justify the time spent on integrating VR and sorting out all other issues vs. the actual number of people that will use it? Now unless one of the devs make this his/her/their pet project…
Yep. One solution to the MFD problem is putting the MFD’s where they physically exist in the cockpit. Then the screen view of your pilot (BMS MFD’s) would match up with the actual position of your MFDs on your desk. In BMS you still wouldn’t necessarily see your virtual hands, but that isn’t required. Just the same as you can close your eyes, extend your arms out to your sides, and still manage to touch your finger to your nose without looking. Your brain knows where your body is. If the virtual space matches up with your physical space, you’ll be able to use the MFD’s without much trouble.
The brain knows where your body is, so it knows where your finger is in relation to your nose. It does not know where your finger is in relation to your MFD. Do the car challenge I mentioned above and honestly tell me how accurate you were with manipulating the controls.
Have you actually tried building a cockpit? Do you know how hard it is to put the MFD at the right place above your knees, at the right angle? You do know the front console is not totally vertical, right? To put the MFD where it is in the real cockpit just so that it works with VR seems an awful lot of work, especially if the subject in question only has a computer, VR, and HOTAS. Even if you manage to put the MFD in the right place, how many do you think sit like an F-16 pilot? Can you hit an MFD that looks like it’s above your knee with the “virtual you” sitting at a 30-degree incline and the “real you” sitting in an upright office chair?
There are plenty of ways VR can work, and plenty of other games which will use VR other than BMS. The more people who buy into VR, the more software titles you’ll see either upgrade to support it, or include it from the start.
VR works. It even works in BMS. However, it’s just not compatible with BMS for some of us that fly in a particular manner and need to access other input devices. “Working” and “compatibility” are two different things. Talking about VR compatibility with other games is useless here as this is the BMS forum and we’re discussing VR in terms of using it in BMS.
I have been aware of VR since around 1990 when it was about to be the next big thing.
We’re a lot further on now than we were then of course. I don’t doubt that todays VR would be ideal for a non complex flight sim. The issue isn’t whether VR works, it’s whether it works for a complex sim. And when I say works with it, I mean whether it works without having to use workarounds.
I have no doubt that will happen. And when it does it will be a very good thing. The technology to have proper three dimensional finger tracking is already out there. However the only package I’m aware of currently that can do that seems to be forward facing only. But when you can match up a VR headset with the ability to reach out and touch buttons and rotate dials that will be when VR is truly compatible with complex simulations such as BMS.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is against VR, because it’s not compatible with their setups, or for any other reason.
I do wish that people who are invested in VR would dial some of their enthusiasm back. I don’t think it does anyone any favours to turn the discussion about it into a confrontation.
Thank you supanova! Well said! Indeed, I am not against VR nor am I telling people what to do with the money that’s burning a hole in their pocket! However, what we have now isn’t what I’m looking for and I’ve weighed the pros and cons and have decided that with my current setup, VR will take away more than give back, so it is incompatible with how I like to fly and what my needs are for my sims. Given the cost of VR (and note that my PC is considered VR-ready), I’m willing to wait for the tech to mature a bit more rather than having to “make-do” with workarounds.
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
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Just because you personally can mess with your settings while flying low level, does not mean you should. This is something detailed quite well in a number of AFIs.
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
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Yeah I have literally zero issues adjusting any of those things in a car unless it’s one of the first times I’m driving it.
Blind folded? When was the last time you tried that? For that matter, what on earth prompted you to try it? I can’t do that blind folded, and I have driven the same model car for nearly five years now.
Again, OK, a few people have apps on iPads and such, some printed out charts, MFDs, etc. Most don’t. Most people have no issues memorizing check lists, just like IRL. I mostly play in the ITO, there you’ve got the option of having kneeboards in the virtual cockpit displaying info for different airfields.
You should never work from a memorized check list. The whole POINT of a check list is to check the things you do off. I never trust my memory with things like that. Not at work, not at play, definitely not when I’m getting ready to fly a military jet, even if it’s a simulated one.
And the kneeboards are pretty much useless in a VR environment. A simple page of text is impossible to read comfortably, even with the most modern VR headsets. The resolution is much too low.