The future of the sim..?
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such as a much needed DirectX update
Let’s see:
DX7 –> DX9 - Done in the past (Including a move from Fixed Function pipeline to shaders, which is not obvious)DX9 --> DX11 - Why you think can’t be done?
or reworking all the models and texture
Models and textures are being reworked last time I checked…
and terrain
Terrain is a huge PITA yes, will it take time to modify? sure, will it happen? Yes it will, I only don’t know to tell you when… but at some point we will have to tackle it.
and UI screens to be a true native HD and not scaled
Also a PITA, but not as terrain…
designing new code to handle newer technology and avionics that the engine can’t currently handle like JTIDS, IFF, “stealth”, AESA, etc…
I do understand these are all new techs in terms of Falcon, but why do you think that the engine can’t handle it currently? I mean what’s the difference between IFF and TGP/IAMs/MITL/TFR/Mavericks/YouNameIt ? The stuff here doesn’t require a new engine or framework, and actually only depend on someone that would like to do it and take the time for that.
They are very large and labor intensive projects that are hard for someone to take on willingly without a paycheck to keep them coming back for more every day
Agree, but… You could say the same about:
DX7 --> DX9 upgrade
The best ****ing F-16 Flight Model you can find for a none-military simulator (and all the physics that comes with that)
Stable MP (In oppose to the original product)
State of the art Dead Reckoning
Particle system instead of Falcon original crappy GIFs
All the avionics upgrades that were implemented throughout the yearsAnd last but not least - Endless cleanup (Still and always On going) of zillion of hands that touched the code over the years and at some cases left code which may make you sometimes wanna jump from the highest building you can find
Do you think anyone was ever payed for anything?
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I’m not really into BMS world , maybe it will sound stupid or simply i’m wrong but…
what about create a DCS module of the F16?
A free mod I mean , based on what has been done already in BMS and ported there where you dont have to care about upgrade an old software and can “iterate” with other detailed planes.
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I’m not really into BMS world , maybe it will sound stupid or simply i’m wrong but…
what about create a DCS module of the F16?
A free mod I mean , based on what has been done already in BMS and ported there where you dont have to care about upgrade an old software and can “iterate” with other detailed planes.
The problem with that is the DCS and the Falcon engines are 2 very different things. Such as DCS does NOT have a dynamic campaign, nor does it have the avionics that BMS has IMO. The bottom line is that they are 2 different engines. Porting them to each other would be a monumental task from both sides IMO.
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being chained to ED’s bizarre priorities is in no way an improvement anyway. DCS’ engine has marginal improvements over falcon’s, but it also is missing 2/3 of BMS’ features.
even if such a project could be completed tomorrow i’d rather just play BMS. it’s already better than DCS and will probably continue to be for at least the next decade. ED’s progress is glacial and their decision-making is questionable at best. i don’t know if you’ve ever played FC3, but try firing missiles at the enemy in it. then you will see why no one should be in any hurry to grovel at ED’s feet.
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How are the FM’s of the aircraft modelled in DCS?
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Only way to keep anything going in the very long term is FOSS development.
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Only way to keep anything going in the very long term is FOSS development.
Exactly the opposite… Open source Falcon will kill this community in a few months. We have enough debates without source code, with source code you will have zillion versions flowing around and no one will be able to connect to anyone else, and eventually it’ll fall apart.
And… if you think that open source would help to achieve the “Big things” in the list, then you are again wrong. The open source FF code could be a great base for anyone out there to demonstrate some breath taking new code in ANY of the areas of the sim, but you know how many such examples there are? Zero.
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Exactly the opposite… Open source Falcon will kill this community in a few months. We have enough debates without source code, with source code you will have zillion versions flowing around and no one will be able to connect to anyone else, and eventually it’ll fall apart.
And… if you think that open source would help to achieve the “Big things” in the list, then you are again wrong. The open source FF code could be a great base for anyone out there to demonstrate some breath taking new code in ANY of the areas of the sim, but you know how many such examples there are? Zero.
Well, your second statement and my comment are not mutually exclusive. FOSS is about letting the development continue, not anything to do with the community. You’ll note that BMS development spent years without there BEING a BMS community as far as most folks were concerned. And I cant argue that having multiple versions of Falcon around would cause issues with people choosing not to fly with people using other versions.
I know FOSS would help achieve the big things in the list, as a simple case of many hands and light work. As you allude to, the FF code is OSS, but not FOSS. Its not a legal base for anyone to use to demonstrate anything.
Ive considered using it anyway to demonstrate a few specific things Id like to see in BMS (MDDE MFD page for example), but have received advice from more than one person that doing so would be a waste of time, as the demonstration would be just that - a pretty demo about as useful as the version of Seven G floating around. Then there is the legal issue that making such a demo would leave me liable to legal action from Tommo and their subsidiaries, as well as the folks who contributed to Free Falcon.
On the whole, it has not seemed like a very smart idea to expend effort on.
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Exactly the opposite… Open source Falcon will kill this community in a few months. We have enough debates without source code, with source code you will have zillion versions flowing around and no one will be able to connect to anyone else, and eventually it’ll fall apart.
And… if you think that open source would help to achieve the “Big things” in the list, then you are again wrong. The open source FF code could be a great base for anyone out there to demonstrate some breath taking new code in ANY of the areas of the sim, but you know how many such examples there are? Zero.
The FF source code was stolen not open (and in a sorry state) no one in the OSS community would have touched that stuff with a ten foot pole anyway. As for BMS you cannot opensource the code anyway because Tommo owns the license to it and would be their call anyways. Starting a new code base from scratch is obviously a huger endeavour and not a part-time task.
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The FF source code was stolen not open (and in a sorry state) no one in the OSS community would have touched that stuff with a ten foot pole anyway. As for BMS you cannot opensource the code anyway because Tommo owns the license to it and would be their call anyways. Starting a new code base from scratch is obviously a huger endeavour and not a part-time task.
The FF source code is open. It is not free. There is a big distinction. Unless the details of the agreement between BMS and Tommo are public information (I had thought they were not), you cannot say for sure whether BMS could or could not make the code open source. Without permission from Tommo, they could not relicense it under a FOSS license.
Terminology is important, especially when discussing matters of ownership and legalities.
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And before it will get out of hand regarding legal stuff and question marks, when I referred to the FF source code, I do not mean that someone will now built something to release another version of Falcon somehow… what I mean is that it could be used as a base to get familiar with the general code structure. And FWIW The original leaked code could also probably be used to some extent for such purpose.
Bottom Line my point is - If someone REALLY would like to help, then he would have found a creative way to draw the positive attention. And FWIW it doesn’t even have to be related directly to the Falcon source code itself… the sim can benefit even from some standalone concept which can demonstrate new technologies that can be implemented later into the sim.
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And before it will get out of hand regarding legal stuff and question marks, when I referred to the FF source code, I do not mean that someone will now built something to release another version of Falcon somehow… what I mean is that it could be used as a base to get familiar with the general code structure. And FWIW The original leaked code could also probably be used to some extent for such purpose.
Bottom Line my point is - If someone REALLY would like to help, then he would have found a creative way to draw the positive attention. And FWIW it doesn’t even have to be related directly to the Falcon source code itself… the sim can benefit even from some standalone concept which can demonstrate new technologies that can be implemented later into the sim.
So are you also saying that if someone coded something into FF and it seemed useful, there could be potential interest in importing that piece of code to BMS? I am aware that on some levels FF and BMS are very similar, but BMS went further and did more with it. So, is it still similar enough today to actually be viable? I don’t know, seems like a whole lot of risk for little reward, i.e. hours of coding for it not to be used by anyone to me lol.
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Let’s see:
DX7 –> DX9 - Done in the past (Including a move from Fixed Function pipeline to shaders, which is not obvious)DX9 --> DX11 - Why you think can’t be done?
I never said it CAN’T be done. I know for a fact it CAN be done, I just think it SHOULD be done. DX9 is wildly, crazy inefficient compared to DX11, and more so to DX12, especially on modern GPUs which can leverage the newer ISAs. But the GFX engine would have to be re-written from the ground up, and not just adapted to the new API functions and calls.Models and textures are being reworked last time I checked…
That’s good news. And I’m sure it takes a lot of work. But without the previously mentioned upgrade and the one below this, this is kind of a moot issue. Even great models look iffy at 20FPS.Terrain is a huge PITA yes, will it take time to modify? sure, will it happen? Yes it will, I only don’t know to tell you when… but at some point we will have to tackle it.
This is the point I was really trying to make with everything I said before. It’s all hard, time intensive stuff. I never said you wouldn’t tackle the things on the list, in fact I said almost word for word what you did–at some point it will have to be done.Also a PITA, but not as terrain…
Same as above…I do understand these are all new techs in terms of Falcon, but why do you think that the engine can’t handle it currently? I mean what’s the difference between IFF and TGP/IAMs/MITL/TFR/Mavericks/YouNameIt ? The stuff here doesn’t require a new engine or framework, and actually only depend on someone that would like to do it and take the time for that.
If this is the case then great–but this is contradictory to several posts from team members in the past. I agree with your statement, it’s just coding. As I said before, from a game play perspective the sky is the limit.Agree, but… You could say the same about:
DX7 --> DX9 upgrade
The best ****ing F-16 Flight Model you can find for a none-military simulator (and all the physics that comes with that)
Stable MP (In oppose to the original product)
State of the art Dead Reckoning
Particle system instead of Falcon original crappy GIFs
All the avionics upgrades that were implemented throughout the yearsAnd last but not least - Endless cleanup (Still and always On going) of zillion of hands that touched the code over the years and at some cases left code which may make you sometimes wanna jump from the highest building you can find
I deal with this on a daily basis so trust me, I know this is a pain.
Do you think anyone was ever payed for anything?
I know nobody has. And I know it’s all volunteer on your own time. I never said anything to the contrary. I have said it time and time again, despite my “suggestions” sounding negative, I do enjoy the game. And just like many others I want it to continue. But I want it to improve as well, in ways that expand beyond just new game play features.I tried to clarify before that I wasn’t being a negative nancy in my post but it seems I still offended nonetheless.
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So are you also saying that if someone coded something into FF and it seemed useful, there could be potential interest in importing that piece of code to BMS? I am aware that on some levels FF and BMS are very similar, but BMS went further and did more with it. So, is it still similar enough today to actually be viable? I don’t know, seems like a whole lot of risk for little reward, i.e. hours of coding for it not to be used by anyone to me lol.
Well… what you talk about is a much higher resolution than what I meant. What I talked about is more like the idea, or concept to implement something, not necessarily the actual lines of code that will make it work.
As a nice example I’ll give you something which is close to me: During 4.33 development, I wanted to implement Man-In-The-Loop weapons support, something that was never done in Falcon before, so I started to play with it, first obvious issues were how to put a camera on a weapon, so this was a kind of a new-thing if you like. Then based on that I could proceed to the other problems of how to control the weapon, then the easiest stuff of coding the MFD symbols, the different flight modes etc etc. That is an example (even if a relatively “local” one) for something that could be useful. And BTW if you let alone the small details and think about it, the base idea could probably be implemented same way on any other leaked Falcon source code out there.
Now if you think further a head, people that want to, can demonstrate many many concepts by using some existing version of a leaked Falcon code to prove that it could be useful for the sim. Examples?
UI
GFX
Terrain
Damage modelingNot even talking about deeper stuff like improved efficiency of multi-core usage, VU management etc… There is practically an ENDLESS number of items that can be improved for Falcon, we do our best to work on a mix of what’s important and what we want.
Hope that helps, Cheers!
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I tried to clarify before that I wasn’t being a negative nancy in my post but it seems I still offended nonetheless.
Maybe I sounded a bit too defensive (I was accused in the past to be too defensive at times, so I guess I have that, if I like it or not :)), but I wasn’t offended.
We all want to improve, and we are doing that all the time, so even when there is no news posted (You can say it’s a kind of policy), things behind the scenes are evolving all the time. That is all I can say at this point.
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So are you also saying that if someone coded something into FF and it seemed useful, there could be potential interest in importing that piece of code to BMS? I am aware that on some levels FF and BMS are very similar, but BMS went further and did more with it. So, is it still similar enough today to actually be viable? I don’t know, seems like a whole lot of risk for little reward, i.e. hours of coding for it not to be used by anyone to me lol.
Could not have said it better. Every person remotely related to the project cites how much work has been done and the evolution of the sim over the past few years. I-Hawk’s response to me earlier states a handful of MASSIVE changes that have been done since those code bases were leaked/released/made available or whatever you want to call it. Not to mention he stated there have been so many hands in the cookie jar that even are still cleaning up messes from years ago.
Without a LOT more information about what’s going on underneath and what has changed or is still viable, this would be a huge waste. Even if you developed a proof of concept and everyone liked it and the team wanted to implement it themselves based on your code, there is constantly talk of how busy they are with other stuff they are already working on so it would likely die a slow forgotten death in the corner of someone’s mind. You don’t need to Open Source the code however. You could put out an SDK-style document that describes the interfaces and functionality for different pieces of the sim. The shared memory stuff is a decent attempt and not a terrible start, but it could use about 200 more pieces to the puzzle. But everything from MFD pages to radar system functionality, to ATC, or logistics, or the avionics on different aircraft would require some rather in depth knowledge of how things are CURRENTLY working in the background in order to code. With the right direction, nothing on that list is terribly hard to do from a coding perspective. But as you mention, dumping 20-30 hours into writing the functionality and overlays for F15 MFD pages is pointless if the game isn’t able to apply specific avionics to specific air frames, or without knowing if there have been changes to how the SMS interacts with the weapon objects in the code (Which I’m almost positive there have), etc…
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Maybe I sounded a bit too defensive (I was accused in the past to be too defensive at times, so I guess I have that, if I like it or not :)), but I wasn’t offended.
We all want to improve, and we are doing that all the time, so even when there is no news posted (You can say it’s a kind of policy), things behind the scenes are evolving all the time. That is all I can say at this point.
I believe that. I know that we will be graced with 4.34 one day, the BMS team thus far in 6 years has not failed to deliver and the surprise of finding what’s in the latest update is part of the fun. I do miss very much the “3 to 4 weeks” jokes in regards to 4.33, it was almost a community identity for a loooong time. Can we get that going again, I-Hawk?
Please sir, tell me when 4.34 will be released tounge in cheek
Oh, 3-4 weeks you say?
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The FF source code is open. It is not free. There is a big distinction. Unless the details of the agreement between BMS and Tommo are public information (I had thought they were not), you cannot say for sure whether BMS could or could not make the code open source. Without permission from Tommo, they could not relicense it under a FOSS license.
Terminology is important, especially when discussing matters of ownership and legalities.
Exaclty the thing is the original poster slapped his own license to something leaked and put it on github , that doesnt make it “open”
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Maybe I sounded a bit too defensive (I was accused in the past to be too defensive at times, so I guess I have that, if I like it or not :)), but I wasn’t offended.
We all want to improve, and we are doing that all the time, so even when there is no news posted (You can say it’s a kind of policy), things behind the scenes are evolving all the time. That is all I can say at this point.
Stop chatting here and hurry up on the next impossible falcon move else I will finish mine before you (and I am closer already )
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