F16 & buddy lasing : what is the point of buddy lasing?
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I’d like to know when you need to tactically use the buddy lasing with F16? because according to me, this approach is old and it is not very useful for modern fighter like F16, no?
in short, I try to find in which situation it is necessary to use the buddy lasing and especially cases used In IRL … -
Buddy lasing is still widely used even in real life. A good part of JTAC training is buddy lasing a target for fighters above.
The benefit comes from allowing one or a group of fighters to drop laser guided bombs without having to remain vulnerable while self-lasing. Essentially, the fighter’s (or even helicopter’s) munitions become fire-&-forget. The trick like with anything else “FAC” is trying to talk the pilot dropping the bombs onto the target that’s being lased. If both fighters have a clear view (no clouds) to the target its relatively easy. It can even be used with a cloud layer with some success, but that takes quite a bit “Vulcan mind-melding” to get it right.
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…it also allows the attackers to carry more munitions by not having to specifically carry a TGP - less drag/lower OWE => more time in the air/on station. Everyone likes that…except the enemy…
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Body Lazing, I got a large one of them.
OH BUDDY LASING Sorry its getting a bit hard to read the screen laying on this sofa. :munch:
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Imagine that buddy lasing can be accomblished and from ground forces.That gives the squadron to hit more targets in cases of some lasing pods have problem and are not functionable…
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I believe are mostly for patrol cases.
Have 2 airplane with a-g config standing by or in the air.
If a target comes up the pilot only needs to know the general area to fly to. With infra tgp he can easily spot the lasing point. So he just guide his plane to the exact point, drops and quickly goes away. The lasing for acurracy is continued from ground.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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Very simple: try it! Lasing as jtac directing 7 jets onto target. Very fast and efficient. I’m not a groundpounder but that really showed me why they do it as they do it.
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Oh for buddy lasing it just eases the workload and raises sa for both I believe. One works before release the other after.
With Mark points and datalink one passes the target to the other.
Better check 6 and quicker out of there times.
No need for both airplane to be close to each other and to the hot zone.sent from my mi5 using Tapatalk
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buddy lasing is not done from the ground but rather from air …so ok I understand the interest with ground forces (TACP) because their positions is static during the lasing as also the case for rotating wing : they offer the advantage of an increased loiter time on station.
now if you read the employment of Laser : The first problem is designation. To ensure accurate guidance, the target must be illuminated by a LASER designator and the pilot must deliver the weapon within the “weapon basket” (the zone in which the weapon seeker can observe the LASER target marker and the weapon has sufficient energy to guide to the target).
so the main difficulty for another designator F16 is to be correctly located during the drop pass…this is why this kind of tactic is only available for slow aircrafts ( AC-130) and Modern conflicts and a growing emphasis on precision-guided weapons have pointed to the need for autonomous designation, and many fighter-bomber aircraft are now being fitted with designator pods to self-designate for LASER-guided munitions.
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This is a perfect example where Buddy Lasing can be useful:
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sure you are right Dee-Jay! in this case, one of these Mirages has not the POD capability
but now if you consider the F16… -
sure you are right Dee-Jay! in this case, one of these Mirages has not the POD capability
but now if you consider the F16…Refer to Stevie’s post or … might be useful in case of one failing pod … might also be used to be ready support the other illuminator in an different angle … etc … Think also about the number of available pod which is not unlimited …
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In short: some targets you need to strike have, or are protected by something that has, a longer and bigger range than you do. For example, you’re attacking an SA-4 SAM site, or something protected by one, and BMS being BMS, they didn’t schedule a SEAD flight with HARM, but you with LGB…
Different options to guide the bomb to target yourself:
Come in high altitude, drop your bomb, take an offset => you will be shot at, and most likely shot down before the bomb even hits.
Come in high altitude, drop your bomb, go cold => you will be shot at, and with TGP looking back, there’s a good chance of masking with the slightest input
Come in low altitude, pop up to toss the bomb, get back low with offset or cold => most likely, view on target will be blocked by terrain. If not, you will be shot at while there is line of sight to targetNow, bring in buddy lasing:
1 goes in low, tosses the bomb and goes cold, while the other one lases from outside the SA-4 WEZ: Minor chance of being engaged for both aircraft.How?
Two examples of simple tactics (there are far more complex tactics out thereNow for real life:
Just like JTAC on ground, you could have 1 or 2 aircraft with a long loiter time (no bombs, just Mk1 Eyeball and TGP) looking for targets, guiding in bombers from anywhere (straight in or anchors) on target.Secondly, even if you brought a TGP of your own, it’s electronics. A sensor may have dislodged due to over-G, the little engine driving the camera head jams, you hit a bird on take-off, …
Thirdly, backup / fail safe. You decide to drop a bomb, and right after you drop, you need to go defensive, or a cloud covers your line of sight, or whatever… Your buddy, if set up correctly, can take over guidance immediately.
Etc.All of the above pretty simplified, but you get the idea.
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This is a perfect example where Buddy Lasing can be useful:
Dior Hamani international …… will be there un thursday
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Dior Hamani international …… will be there un thursday
Too bad … I was there one month ago.
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I’d like to know when you need to tactically use the buddy lasing with F16? because according to me, this approach is old and it is not very useful for modern fighter like F16, no?
in short, I try to find in which situation it is necessary to use the buddy lasing and especially cases used In IRL …There are a lot of IRL situations that simply won’t happen in the game… and I’d venture to say there’ll be some situations in the game that won’t happen IRL.
Simply put – there is the option to buddy-lase IRL so they’ve decided to put it in the game as well.I’m not so sure Stevie’s answer (less drag) really applies in the game. For one, the TGP does not occupy a pylon slot and also I don’t think anyone’s ever NOT made it home due to the drag from a TGP… this is considering F-16s of course. Situation will be different with different aircraft but again, I’m not sure if we can have this in-game. Say a flight of A-10s with an F-16 lasing for them… that would be cool.
now if you read the employment of Laser : The first problem is designation. To ensure accurate guidance, the target must be illuminated by a LASER designator and the pilot must deliver the weapon within the “weapon basket” (the zone in which the weapon seeker can observe the LASER target marker and the weapon has sufficient energy to guide to the target).
Well, I would wager that the basket for a LGB is pretty decent… otherwise what’s the point? Would be interesting to get rough numbers though… like how far off can a bomb be and still guide to target? I would think this would be altitude dependent on the most part… Dee-Jay?
so the main difficulty for another designator F16 is to be correctly located during the drop pass…this is why this kind of tactic is only available for slow aircrafts ( AC-130) and Modern conflicts and a growing emphasis on precision-guided weapons have pointed to the need for autonomous designation, and many fighter-bomber aircraft are now being fitted with designator pods to self-designate for LASER-guided munitions.
Not sure what you mean here… of course the drop has to be in the correct VICINITY… no use dropping from the other side of town, but maybe a couple of blocks’ error could be corrected given enough altitude and lasing time.
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There are a lot of IRL situations that simply won’t happen in the game… and I’d venture to say there’ll be some situations in the game that won’t happen IRL.
Simply put – there is the option to buddy-lase IRL so they’ve decided to put it in the game as well.I think this is the best answer I’ve seen as far as BMS implementation. The truth is, there really isn’t much reason to do it in BMS, other than equipment malfunctions. But based on the damage model in BMS, odds are if your TGP is dead, you won’t be able to employ anyways. RL situations are different, and obviously this thread is filled with a slew of different scenarios where this might come in handy. I assumed from his question though he was more asking about the effectiveness, or usefulness in BMS.
I’m not so sure Stevie’s answer (less drag) really applies in the game. For one, the TGP does not occupy a pylon slot and also I don’t think anyone’s ever NOT made it home due to the drag from a TGP… this is considering F-16s of course. Situation will be different with different aircraft but again, I’m not sure if we can have this in-game. Say a flight of A-10s with an F-16 lasing for them… that would be cool.
This would be fun to do in a MP setting if any of them would let you fly A-10s–but rather slow in effect because only one A-10 could employ at a time. This might be the only other reason to attach to answer 1 from above.
Well, I would wager that the basket for a LGB is pretty decent… otherwise what’s the point? Would be interesting to get rough numbers though… like how far off can a bomb be and still guide to target? I would think this would be altitude dependent on the most part… Dee-Jay?
Not just altitude, but attitude and energy. In theory, with enough forward energy you could lob the bomb from 50ft and get it to go 100NM… but that’s a lot of forward energy (IE: Moving really really fast, and definitely not feasible within the constraints of modern technology) But in the end it comes down to potential energy. Maneuvering the bomb to the target takes energy, and since the weapon is unpowered, it only has so much to give. More altitude obviously means it has greater potential for energy as gravity pulls on it. But even at high altitudes, you may not have the energy required to adjust to target if the initial release vector is too far off. Again, this is somewhat theoretical because the design of the weapon and seeker head and the limits the jet imposes on allowing you to drop outside the window, but the point I’m trying to make is that it’s not all about altitude.
Not sure what you mean here… of course the drop has to be in the correct VICINITY… no use dropping from the other side of town, but maybe a couple of blocks’ error could be corrected given enough altitude and lasing time.
See above.
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Not just altitude, but attitude and energy. In theory, with enough forward energy you could lob the bomb from 50ft and get it to go 100NM… but that’s a lot of forward energy (IE: Moving really really fast, and definitely not feasible within the constraints of modern technology) But in the end it comes down to potential energy. Maneuvering the bomb to the target takes energy, and since the weapon is unpowered, it only has so much to give. More altitude obviously means it has greater potential for energy as gravity pulls on it. But even at high altitudes, you may not have the energy required to adjust to target if the initial release vector is too far off. Again, this is somewhat theoretical because the design of the weapon and seeker head and the limits the jet imposes on allowing you to drop outside the window, but the point I’m trying to make is that it’s not all about altitude.
I fully agree with your response. However, I do not consider energy at all because the attacking aircraft would most likely be delivering it at certain speeds, maybe 350-450knots. Slower speeds would also be possible, but then begs the question “why are you loitering over a presumably hostile target area at 250 knots???” Faster speeds would also be possible but then you’re probably breaking a pylon or something at that point. So delivery will most likely be within a certain range of airspeed. However, delivery ALTITUDE can be vastly different, from a drop at 1,000ft AGL to 30,000ft AGL.
Might be fun to test this in an MP environment… one guy orbits for buddy-lasing and another drops from 20,000ft at 350knots with maybe a 2nm offset from the target, then vary the drop offset, then vary the speed, then vary the altitude…
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BMS has had ridiculously large maneuver windows in the past with the bomb doing impossible stunts. Maybe that’s better now. In DCS I found the limit was on the order 3000-6000’ with continuous lase from high-for-an-A-10’s altitude and speed. Quarter-mile I’m confident; half-mile I’m nervous. Early laser contact is important. A level delivery delays the laser spot being in the seeker’s FOV as the bomb takes a while to rotate. A shallow dive at release greatly reduces the time to spot acquisition.
The best part of buddy lasing is the freedom of delivery platform maneuver. A buddy can lase safely from miles away while the delivery platform is 100% focused on surviving. A buddy-buddy LGB SA-2 LAT attack is hilarious. You just can’t do that solo. Tied for first place is the sorting capability. You don’t have to stress which vehicle in the column to hit just LSS, roll in and deliver there-ish, and let the lasing platform sort it out.
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I’d like to know when you need to tactically use the buddy lasing with F16? because according to me, this approach is old and it is not very useful for modern fighter like F16, no?
in short, I try to find in which situation it is necessary to use the buddy lasing and especially cases used In IRL …In RL $$$$ is not unlimited. If you have less TGP than LGB platfrom… Even non TGP capable AC can use LGB aiming by conventional method then buddy lasing do the rest of work.