Low aft fuel - roll to the left side?
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Hey guys, come down a little bit!
I am a beginner and I created my own Kotar training scenario to train basic procedures all of you know by heart:
1. How to create a TE
2. How to perform a correct ramp start
3. How to perform a full procedure take-off
4. How to boresight Mavericks
5. How to use Mavericks using Handoff / VIS-Mode
6. How to drop bombs using TGP lasing
7. How to drop bombs without TGP using CCRP / CCIP mode
8. How to trim the jet
9. How to perform a full procedure landing
10. How to navigate via TACAN
11. How to perform an ILS landing
12. How to correctly power off the jetTherefore I created my very own training:
1. Start off of Yechon in the early morning (still dark outside)
2. Perform a full procedure take-off according the airport charts (Parot 5a departure)
3. Boresight Mavericks at my waypoint 3 (over a small town)
4. IP 4 as ingress point for KOTAR (coming from south, 20nm to Kotar)
5. STPT 5 as attack pointSTPT 15 for Vertical Target 1
STPT 16 for Vertical Target 2
STPT 17 for Target 7 (Rings)
STPT 18 for Target South (Helicopters)
6. First attack run: Vertical Target 1 with 2 Mavericks (2-ripple) using TGP/Handoff for the first two targets of Vertical target 1
7. Flying up to STPT 6 (20 nm north of Kotar) -> Turn around for 2nd attack run
8. Second attack run: Vertical target 2 with 2 Mavericks (1-ripple) using TGP/Handoff for the first two targets of Vertical target 2
9. Flying south to STPT 4 -> Turn around for 3rd attack run
10. Third attack run: Target 7 (Rings) with 1 GBU 12 (single release) using CCIP -Trim out the jet -> turn around quickly for another pass dropping another GBU 12 via CCIP
11. Flying north to STPT 6 -> Turn around for 4th attack run
12. 4th attack run: Free targets with 2 Mavericks using VIS-mode, firing one after the other
13. Flying south to STPT 4 -> Turn around for 5th attack run
14. 5th attack run: Target Target South (Helicopters) with 2 GBUs (pair release) using CCRP
15. Fly to Kangnung airbase by TACAN navigation -> to IAF NAMAE -> DME arc 12
16. Fly an ILS approach following the circle pattern to runway 08
17. Land on Kangnung in the dawn (nice sky at that time)(As you can see I did not have any A/G munitions left. I did not fire any A/A missiles so these remained. After dropping my last A/G munition the Master Caution light came up and the CAT warning. At this point I’ve switched to CAT I)
I did not change the fuel quantity and left it just as BMS set it for me when creating the TE. When I’m strictly following this flight plan, I get the Bingo warning right after my last attack run and land on Kangnung with 800 to 1000lbs left.
Last time I failed one of my attack runs which I repeated (what was wrong!) so I had approx. about 30 to 40 nm more to go and the fuel just was not enough for this.
The shift occured on my approach to Kangnung airbase while flying the DME arc right before hard turning into the 080 radial, having approx. 500lbs left. I still could have made it to the airbase if I hadn’t to deal with that shift, bringing me completely off-course. After switching ENG FEED to FOR (which I just did, because I did not have any other idea) and lowering the landing gear the shift was gone. I then declared an emergency and struggled to get back to my final approach course. I would have used runway 26 and would not have followed the circle pattern to runway 08. Having the runway just in front of me, flame out and crash.
I didn’t expect the jet to shift in that way so I was curious what could have caused this and what I could have done in this situation. That’s about it.
I’m learning and practicing and can’t consider EVERY aspect of this simulation at this stage. In order to practice I’ve tried to build a scenario where I can train different procedures.
I thank you very much for your replys, but hey, it’s still a game! And not everybody is on the same level as you are. I really appreciate all of your contributions as I want to get into this sim.
But sometimes (and I get that feeling from various other discussions on this forum as well) the postings sound like “Hey you stupid moron, you are doing everything wrong, so what do you expect?” Although this might be absolutely correct, it still doesn’t sound very nice.
PS: The color of my underpants is darkblue.
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If it was a joystick axis failure it will happen again. I used to have same probs years ago with foxy controlled axis profile on hotas cougar when maby a combination of buttons sporadically drove left tremendous roll without obvious reason . Maybe its something like that.
Hopefully it will not happen again! But if it does, well, then I know for sure!
I have a shifting problem with one of my G25 pedals (using for rudder) which I can verify using calibration software. I know this is caused by debris on the potentiometers. Unfortunately my pedals are mounted by screws in my pit and I can only dismount them by going to the downside of the base plate. It’s a pretty heavy wood construction, so not an easy task…
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Hopefully it will not happen again! But if it does, well, then I know for sure!
I have a shifting problem with one of my G25 pedals (using for rudder) which I can verify using calibration software. I know this is caused by debris on the potentiometers. Unfortunately my pedals are mounted by screws in my pit and I can only dismount them by going to the downside of the base plate. It’s a pretty heavy wood construction, so not an easy task…
A very small rudder input can provoke a massive roll
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Just before comming down … I will end with this : the sim don’t compute the required fuel for you and won’t set your Bingo for you. This is your job.
I like the darkblue.
Cheers.
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I had a problematic situation that ended in a fatal crash. It was all my fault, I wanted to get my last bombs on target and my fuel was then just not enough to return to home safely. I crashed 1/4 nm before the runway…
The situation was the following:
First the warning light AFT FUEL LOW came on. After approx. 1 min. the jet started shifting to the left side (similar to dropping a single heavy bomb or after firing a HARM missile, but A LOT STRONGER). I could still get into level flight and even get the jet to turn to the right, but it was almost impossible to hold it there as it would pull so strongly to the left.
I did not know what to do so I just switched ENG FEED from NORM to FORWARD. The jet still rolled to the left. As I was already approaching the runway I lowered the landing gear. At some point (I don’t remember for sure, I was overwhelmed by that situation) the FOR FUEL LOW light came on and the jet started to level out normally. The side shift was gone. Some seconds later, flame out and crash.
I guess that a fuel imbalance caused the strong shift. But as AFT is related to LEFT wing (and FOR is related to RIGHT), why would the jet turn to the left, if the left side is empty?
Also I would like to know what caused that the shift ended and the jet levelled out correctly again. Because both tanks were empty? Because I lowered the landing gear???I’ve read through the fuel chapter and the warning lights chapter of T.O. BMS1F-16CM-1. Unfortunately I neither found an answer to these questions nor any advice what to do if that happens again (apart from having a better look at my fuel situation next time!).
What do you guys think?
Ok, Folks, I have a theory…Burnz flamed out and the jet started to depart on the left wing, temporarily corrected by going to landing configuration.
His trying various things with the fuel switch was done after the supposed departure, not causing it.
He’s not saying the swerve was caused by ordinance release, he was comparing it to that.
RD, what I think he’s saying is that he didn’t fire any AA missiles. Also, that he had fired his Mavs, then dropped the other, then got stores warning. Am I reading that correctly, burnz?
The only flaw in the theory was that Burnz didn’t indicate control and instrumentation failure that you would see with the generator dropping offline, unless of course the EPU was active
Burnz, two more comments…unless your training area is very close to your airfield, a bingo o 1500 is way too low. Secondly, as I believe someone mentioned, in that situation you should have planned for a flameout landing -
the sim don’t compute the required fuel for you and won’t set your Bingo for you. This is your job.
Cheers.Thank you!
I was not aware of this. I assumed the basic fuel configuration is set accordingly to the flight route by BMS. I will add fuel planning to my flight preparations (oh yeah…).
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His trying various things with the fuel switch was done after the supposed departure, not causing it.
CORRECT
He’s not saying the swerve was caused by ordinance release, he was comparing it to that.
CORRECT
RD, what I think he’s saying is that he didn’t fire any AA missiles. Also, that he had fired his Mavs, then dropped the other, then got stores warning. Am I reading that correctly, burnz?
CORRECT
Thank you for reading precisly!
unless your training area is very close to your airfield, a bingo o 1500 is way too low
I will have to learn about fuel management and will do that. That’s very clear to me now, after this discussion!
you should have planned for a flameout landing
Flameout landing is on my list of things to learn. I thought I would start with “easier” tasks first and move on to the harder tasks (like flamout landing) later on.
At the moment I’m still struggling with A/A refuelling and practicing this a lot. -
There is no problem being a newbee and learning, which it seems you do great
the sim is a complicated one, so when you ask question about what happened in your flight where we werent with you, it’s important that the layout of event is explained as precisely as possible so we have as much information as possible if we want to help you efficientlyI was indeed confused with the missile stuff. It was far from being clear in your explanations, which led to possible confusion
Thank you for reading precisly!
so that’s a bit unfair. To me it wasn’t explained precisely
the harder the sim is the more precise the explanation needs to be for other ppl to understand your sequence of events!
So did you sort out what your issue was after all?
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You also don’t want the ground crew dead 50 feet away from the jet
The EPU in the F-16 isn’t like the APU on other aircraft types, it is an emergency system meant to continue to provide electrical power in the event of engine failure. It is unique in that it uses hydrazine as a fuel source (nasty nasty stuff) which is highly toxic, so anytime the EPU is activated it requires special handling and procedures, so you do not activate it as a matter of course in the Viper, leave it off unless directed by the emergency checklist.
yea bro, the hydrazine in the the simulator is going to kill the nonexistent ground crew. You rechock your tires and pull up the flight line, don’t you? I appreciate your LARPING and knowledge, however at some point, it is excessive.
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yea bro, the hydrazine in the the simulator is going to kill the nonexistent ground crew. You rechock your tires and pull up the flight line, don’t you? I appreciate your LARPING and knowledge, however at some point, it is excessive.
Beyond your thinly vieled attempt to look cool by being the one who has no time for learning…. The imaginary “hydrazine” has nothing to do with it; you stated an incorrect procedure (trying to help the OP) and I simply gave a clarification to your point; which could have taught someone the wrong way. Which to you may not seem significant – that’s fine. But anyone who is studying this in a valuable way, doesn’t just ignore the real world procedures because it can’t kill an imaginary ramp rat.
What I notice about you the most is you get extremely defensive for no reason and try to make yourself feel better about being a beginner by knocking those who came before you, are more senior in the community, and put in the work to gain the know how that you clearly haven’t yet.
So, you’re completely 100% right that the hydrazine in our sim has no factor whatsoever to any persons real or imagined, but to call it excessive because I knew something you didn’t, is laughable and to be blunt is so transparent as to your insecurities with others sharing knowledge that you didn’t. You do it anytime someone quotes you.
Just a little advice with this hobby… if you can’t stand to be wrong once in a while or things might be explained in detail when the subject comes up, then you probably should reevaluate why you are here.
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Gentlemen, please respect Rule No.7 and get back on topic.
There is no seniority in this community; if you choose to offer advice and give others the benefit of your experience remember they are perfectly entitled to ignore it and go their own way, it’s their time after all.
Equally if you ask for help and advice and then ignore it don’t be surprised if people consider there are better uses for their time than answering your questions in future
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Is it possible that you had opened the Air Refueling door for a long time ?
That would cause the fuel imbalance
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Beyond your thinly vieled attempt to look cool by being the one who has no time for learning…. The imaginary “hydrazine” has nothing to do with it; you stated an incorrect procedure (trying to help the OP) and I simply gave a clarification to your point; which could have taught someone the wrong way. Which to you may not seem significant – that’s fine. But anyone who is studying this in a valuable way, doesn’t just ignore the real world procedures because it can’t kill an imaginary ramp rat.
What I notice about you the most is you get extremely defensive for no reason and try to make yourself feel better about being a beginner by knocking those who came before you, are more senior in the community, and put in the work to gain the know how that you clearly haven’t yet.
So, you’re completely 100% right that the hydrazine in our sim has no factor whatsoever to any persons real or imagined, but to call it excessive because I knew something you didn’t, is laughable and to be blunt is so transparent as to your insecurities with others sharing knowledge that you didn’t. You do it anytime someone quotes you.
Just a little advice with this hobby… if you can’t stand to be wrong once in a while or things might be explained in detail when the subject comes up, then you probably should reevaluate why you are here.
your non existent hydrazine and your non existent seniority, next time save yourself some time- you project like a drive in theater. BUT DO YOU rechock your tires?
You just admitted I was right, then appealed to an argument from authority, and then a senior member told you there was no such thing- so No, in the future, I think I’ll continue as I have been, maybe the real learning is for you to experience? You seem to be reading into my posts, which would in fact characterize you, in every ribbon you’ve tried to tie me in. Just a little advice, human nature is the same despite the hobby, I’m not surprised.
you are larping, and used to talking to twelve year olds who won’t challenge you, it’s not defensive rhetoric. Moreover as darrk said, I was trying to help, you are correcting everything running big shot “as a matter of fact”-ly, you’re making claims based on assumptions.
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My warning post was to both of you. Sadly you chose to ignore it and continue your tirade.
You now have more time, please use it wisely and come back rested and refreshed.